Monzanator

38 minutes ago, Olympian1010 said:

So glad I woke up late this morning, and just kind of missed this one 

You should be a little sad. You wanted Russia banned for 30 years IIRC so 4 years is kinda soft   Plus it's Russia who gets banned but not actually Russians

6 minutes ago, LowerSaxony said:

Yes. Russian politics won over sports - again. Now, Russia is not allowed to use their flag and their anthem for 4 years. Wow. They will never recover from this. At the same time, they refused to uncover which athletes were doped when they manipulated their data and refused to cooperate with WADA. All these athletes are able to start in Tokyo. So basically, nothing happened. Russia will have a full team in Tokyo (maybe with few exceptions) under the label of neutral athletes. Russian propaganda now fires again the same old victimization campaign (we don't do doping, others do it as well, it's political etc.) and of course they will appeal on CAS in order to exploit the propaganda to the maximum, but to be honest: Nothing really happened which can change the doping problem in Russian sports. Russian sport officials should celebrate right now.

Russia has operated that way since centuries. They will always blame others for trying to take them down. No way Russia has a full team in Tokyo, just no frickin' way.

What's even worse, most of the world thinks Russia is the only doping problem in the world and everyone else is clean. Like I've said, watch out for these Russian hackers starting to uncover documents about Western athletes next. This will be a part of the "payback" campaign IMO.

28 minutes ago, LowerSaxony said:

 

I think nobody would deny that Kenya has a severe doping problem. But in order to file a lawsuit like that against Russia, you need evidence that the state/government is clearly involved and supports doping -  "looking away" is really hard to prove. In my opinion, this is what happens in Kenya: The state looks away and let the training groups do their doping. Ofc, by looking away, the state enables doping! And I think, this should be punished as well! But: It remains unclear whether the government forces doping or let their athletes compete only compete if they subordinate that doping system. Unless evidence for those issues comes to daylight, it is nearly impossible to ban the entire Kenyan federation. An appeal against a ban only on the basis of hints (even if there are tons of it in the Kenyan case...) would never be upheld by CAS. Never ever. Until then, it is only possible to ban single athletes. Let's hope that ARD is going to find evidence as they did in the Russian case. And as along as we have to wait for such evidence, the sports world is only able to ban those countries for which state-driven doping is proven - even if they are not the only "evil" in the world.

This goes back to my original question, how much money and effort is ARD or any other media willing to spend to track down the doping in Kenya and find evidence of state-sponsored doping to the extent of the Russian case? In my view - nowhere near as much IMO. I'd say they'll be happy to let Kenya and Ethiopia slide alltogether. These African countries are poor enough and have no global value beyond athletics, yes, their governments can look away and let the big money sponsors take over the sporting programme and maybe inject enough doping along the way. Sure, enabling these doping cases is very similar to Russia, the difference is Russia injects their own money & resources while Kenya & Ethiopia allow foreign investors to fund the whole ordeal. And they're supposedly less guilty or even not guilty of state-sponsored doping. Just because the money isn't Kenyan but from off-shore accounts or whatever?

Just now, hckosice said:

 

perhaps. Anyhow, it's basically just a name. What matters, is how it will work, and I am persuaded that it will work as in Korea not like it was in Rio.

Just a name? Hell, then don't say a word someone makes the notorious Slovakia vs Slovenia jokes. Slovakia is also just a name, no biggie   Let's go Czechoslovakia!

2 minutes ago, LowerSaxony said:

btw in German TV they said that OAR will not be reused, this time the team will be called "Neutral Athletes."

Whatever. It's pure bullshit no matter how you look at it

3 minutes ago, Kirkpatrick said:

That OAR thing is so stupid.

 

Russians medalists should grab flags from audience and celebrate properly. I'll put that fabulous Russian anthem on Youtube at that moment, or hopefully someone hacks stadium sound and puts it there.

 

Anyway, what does this mean for: Bolshunov, Ustiugov and rest of Russian cross-country skiers? For Loginov, Yurlova and other biathletes? Alpine skiiers and ski jumpers? Basically, from winter sports in current world cups...?

Russian presence in ski jumping or alpine skiing is minimal. I'd be shocked if they allow a single biathlete or cross country skier to compete in Beijing. Bolshunov & co. will watch the Games on TV

8 minutes ago, LowerSaxony said:

Again, letting the Kenyan case aside: What would you recommend to do with Russia?

That's the thing. We can't let the Kenyan thing aside. If Russia is banned from global events then Kenya should follow suit. And yet some people like dcro here claim Kenya should be let off the hook because they don't host global events. What kind of logic is that? Kenya hasn't even been thrown out of the IAAF events even though athletics is like 99% of their sporting presence. I wouldn't be so vocal about it if the same standards were applied for everyone but it's clear they won't. IAAF will look away and let all these Kenyans compete like nothing happened. Hell, they may even award Nairobi hosting the World Championships one day.

6 minutes ago, LowerSaxony said:

Why not? Even IAAF let her compete as she is not involved in any proven doping, nor mentioned in Mc Laren's report. Please elaborate your argument.

Because she was banned from competing in Rio 2016 already. She remains based in Russia so it's natural they will ban her from competing in Tokyo again IMO.

1 minute ago, hckosice said:

 

+1 for your attention, buddy

 

Anyway, jokes aside. say what you want but personally I agree with the decision.

 

the Russians are responsible for it and can blame only themselves. The good thing is that the clean athletes are allowed to compete and it is how it should be.

You really think someone like Lasitskene will be allowed to compete in Tokyo? Not in a million years, my friend 

52 minutes ago, dcro said:

So punishing proven cheaters is now a political decision? While letting them go scot-free would be fair and NOT political?

 

Always the same boring narrative. "Russians should not be punished for their proven fraudulent cover-up of a fraud (...) because, get this, there are maybe probably more cheaters out there."

 

This would be just dandy in real life. "Your Honor, even though there is undeniable evidence, I believe my client should get away with murder, since there are surely murderers out there who never went to jail."

48 minutes ago, dcro said:

And don't even start with Kenya and Ethiopia. Whatever they may be doing, they did NOT host Olympics and essentially made a mockery from them.

 

It's like comparing a street mugger with corrupted CEO.

Exactly my point, Russia is big & powerful and they hosted the Olympics so their punishment should me more severe than countries who aren't as rich and don't host any gobal events.

It's the same crap like calling the alcohol in beer & whiskey different. If you drove under the influence of whiskey then we're taking your license but if drank beer then we won't.

Yeah, it's fairly clear that Kenya can have hundreds of dozens doped atheltes and nobody wouldn't do anything about it because the country is not as powerful as Russia. Only confirms how political this issue really is.

What a load of crap that is indeed.

7 minutes ago, LowerSaxony said:

 

I think everybody's well aware about the doping problem in Kenya. It is questionable whether it its state-sponsored (authorities help athletes to get their drugs) or if they just look away, but whatever. The point is that there is simply not that clear evidence about a systematical doping as we have in the Russian case. Should we wait with punishment for a proven state-sponsored doping fraud until we have checked all other countries? If two burglars rob a bank and we have evidence for only one of them - should both be released just because it would be unfair to the burglar in prison?

And moreover, I really don't see why you make an East-Western thing of it. There is no country in the world which has a better network in world sports than Russia. You really think they let Kenya go on purpose while they punish Russia? That's hilarious in my eyes.

You are very naive. How much money & effort ARD put into uncovering the Russian doping case? I'd say quite a lot. How much effort does ARD or anyone else put into the Kenyan case? I'd say much less. Yeah, it's better to look away and pretend Russia is the only evil of this world

12 minutes ago, De_Gambassi said:

 

They don't have a state sponsored doping system, more a dont give fuck doping system, which is not exactly the same thing.

 

PS: can you please stop your "westerner" crap. it's getting ridiculous.

Good try but neah... Your collonialist rule is over, my friend. France no longer dictates who should speak what in this world.

1 minute ago, phelps said:

 

sure...that's perfectly understandable...

 

but then, if you really can prove a whole system is corrupted from the head, then you can put on a farce like OAR and say: "OK...no Flag, no Anthem, but we let those people play just because we can get them personally"...

 

if they decided Russia must go as a whole Nation/system, they must not allow anybody from that Nation to participate under any circumstance (and even not allow them to change Nationality for any reason for the next X years)...

 

still, if you have to take such a Draconian decision, you gotta do it for all those who are in the same situation...not just one single side of the medal...

 

and once again, in any case, guilty or not, the fact itself that we came down to a point like this, it's the saddest moment of the Olympic history just because of it happening...

 

 

Obviously they won't because they don't dislike Kenya as much as Russia for instance. It's all down to anti-Russian bias, there is no anti-Kenyan bias to speak of.

Today is a huge win for the Western World, probably their biggest win since the post-Cold War communist block collapse.

9 minutes ago, heywoodu said:

 

Yep, but when fraudsters start covering up their fraud with more fraud, punishment has to get harder. Surely there will again be a host of athletes competing, don't forget there were still 168 (!) Russians who could perfectly fine compete in Pyeongchang. It's all nice and dandy for them to kick around crying like a child who doesn't get their preferred candy in the supermarket, but the blame really is 100% on the Russian authorities and their state-sponsored doping. DDR and Soviet-Union all over again without any shame.

 

Sure, one can discuss how WADA handles it, but that just takes away from the main point: Russian authorities fucked their own athletes.

Is Kenya a state-sponsored doping too? Or because the country is poor their form of doping support doesn't count as statewide? I'm well aware the Westerners like you would only like to talk about DDR & Soviet Union (Russia) but it's not going to work, my friend.

9 minutes ago, heywoodu said:

 

Ok.

I see you're not even defending or pretending your case so I'm sure I was 100% correct on this one

1 hour ago, heywoodu said:

So, 4 year ban for Russia from all major events. And again, neutral athletes stay possible. Posting it here because it's not just IOC news and not just Tokyo 2020 news.

https://www.bbc.com/sport/olympics/50710598

 

Committing fraude in a fraude investigation. Yeah, they were just asking for it. Good riddance, sad as it is for many actually clean athletes. Again, they have one thing and one thing only to thank: Russian authorities.

Please be more specific, two things, the anti-Russian bias in the West is also responsible for this. Nobody and I mean nobody gives a damn about single, clean Russian athletes. This is a collective responsibility like I ever saw one. At least you can stop pretending and making jokes about the big bad West and all that crap. I know how happy you are right now, well done, you've reached your goal, my congratulations. Now let's see if Kenya gets a widespread ban like that or will the Western world show them pity? I suspect the latter.

There's one thing that will come out of this, the Russian hackers will try to expose doping among Western athletes in response. God knows how many things have been swept under the carpet in the West? The Salazar/NOP craze has crushed & burned already and it's only a matter of time when more skeletons start falling out.

PS. I fully expect WADA & CAS going nuclear and kicking Russia out of the football Euro 2020 and the 2022 Qatar World Cup if neccessary. All bets are off right now.

Pretty much the game of the season there. George Kittle is the true Gronkowski heir as the best TE in the league.

34 minutes ago, Olympian1010 said:

It is. It was at time in which we still failed to admit that Native Americans were people just the same as us. I wish we would revoke those, but obviously Trump is probably pro-Genocide so...

Clinton & Obama did nothing to revoke these Medals either so?

10 minutes ago, heywoodu said:

 

 

Not every situation where way, way too many people die is a genocide though. I have no doubt for example a scary amount of native Americans were killed because that's what they were, but there's also huge numbers who died because of illnesses the Europeans brought and they had zero defense against. The atomic bombs on Japan for example were definitely not genocide, horrible as it was.

USA has awarded Medals of Honor for the Wounded Knee massacre. That's the ultimate kick in the teeth when it comes to "gallantry & life risk above the call of duty"

3 minutes ago, heywoodu said:

Not her best ones though, since they came in Antholz, Ruhpolding and Nove Mesto. Not exactly North American  

I don't mean what Haecki gained but what other people lost which makes the difference

20 minutes ago, heywoodu said:

In which regard? Because not in terms of points, results, shooting, skiing speed or even relay performances.

Sorry I meant 2016/17. I still feel like that was her best season and some of 18/19 results were inflated due to people skipping the North American trip.

2 minutes ago, heywoodu said:

If Häcki can slowly get her shooting under control better, so can Zuk.

Hacki's last season was worse than 2017/18 for whatever reason. Kamila Zuk has everything she needs to become successful, we even phased Krystyna Guzik out of the A team for both her and Kinga Zbylut to have a full crack at the World Cup. No excuses if she can't score Top 40 results on regular basis.

19 minutes ago, heywoodu said:

Nice revenge for Häcki on Öberg  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biathlon_Junior_World_Championships_2016

Speaking of Obergs - and the days when Kamila Zuk was the hottest junior instead of Davidova

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biathlon_Junior_World_Championships_2018

@Agger  The Nobel Prizes are political for some time, dare I say awarding Obama one stands out as a complete nonsense and obviously left-wing writers are pretty much favored to win one for literature as well.

39 minutes ago, Kirkpatrick said:

4 years from every sport activity, such draconian and stupid punishment. 

 

Anyway, men's relay looking much more exciting than women's, just like in individual races...

It's not stupid, the Western world wants to show Russians who is the boss.

In response I expect more leaks about doping cases among the Western athletes and of course the Russian hackers will be behind it. They've exposed the NOP scandal before already when everyone and their mother was ready to suck on Salazar's kneecaps.

4 hours ago, Olympian1010 said:

One of the American ski commentators has now coined the phrase “It’s not over ‘till the Czech lady skis”. Officially my favorite phrase in winter sport.

Sounds like a rip-off from a quote about Leonhard Stock tbh