[OFF TOPIC] Russia-Ukraine War

[Vektor 3,195]

Russia will never be satisfied because their ultimate goal is become a superpower again, but the war in Ukraine proved that Russia is way too powerless for those ambitions. They will eventually become a puppet state of China, so the current discussions should be between the West and China, not between the West and Russia. The fate of Ukraine and Russia will be decided based on what the US and China want. Russian propaganda says Ukraine is just a chess piece for the US and they fail to realize that Russia has also became a smaller piece in this game. And I think China will be very satisfied by a Russian defeat in this war if it will mean that they will have significant control over a weakened Russia and its resources. China can gain more with this conflict than the West/US, a fully victorious Ukraine is still less of a prize than Russia. And Russia will lose the most as they can become the lapdog of a nation that they have far less cultural connection with than with the West. 

Edited April 10, 2023 by Vektor

[ChandlerMne 624]

Politics put aside, all i see from 2014 is death of humanity and ethics, in all directions. 

Whoever wins, humanity loses.

 

[Vic Liu 1,592]

1 hour ago, ChandlerMne said:

Politics put aside, all i see from 2014 is death of humanity and ethics, in all directions. 

Whoever wins, humanity loses.

 

The best politics is to avoid the war at the very beginning instead of sacrifice a whole generation or ethnic to win. Actually this is no win of war, all war ends up with diplomatic agreement sooner or later, more deaths or less. All battles, deaths and control points shipments are merely oral bargaining chips on the table one day. 

 

I don’t support Russians who started the hot war. But at this point, I just want it stop as soon as possible through diplomacy. Whoever advocates war something like we have to win is cruel and cold blooded as you don’t literally fight on court facing death at all time.

[Vektor 3,195]

46 minutes ago, Vic Liu said:

The best politics is to avoid the war at the very beginning instead of sacrifice a whole generation or ethnic to win. Actually this is no win of war, all war ends up with diplomatic agreement sooner or later, more deaths or less. All battles, deaths and control points shipments are merely oral bargaining chips on the table one day. 

 

I don’t support Russians who started the hot war. But at this point, I just want it stop as soon as possible through diplomacy. Whoever advocates war something like we have to win is cruel and cold blooded as you don’t literally fight on court facing death at all time.

This is not the kind of war that ends until one side completely loses the ability to continue fighting.

 

You want to end it "diplomatically", but what many pro-Russian people mean by that is that they want the West to stop aiding Ukraine because they know the only way this war can conclude if Ukraine loses the ability to fight Russia. And they won't lose that ability if they are supported by NATO. 

 

This war will only end if the Ukrainian army collapses once they run out of supplies or manpower or if Ukraine captures Crimea. There are no other alternatives because Ukraine won't give up any land.

 

Hungary did the same under MUCH harder conditions against the "entire world" in 1919-20. We lost that war, but we didn't stop until the Romanian army captured Budapest. And that was in a divided Hungary, right after World War 1 and after a bloody Soviet revolution and we still fought till we had anything left because we were defending our historical borders. Ukraine is in a better position, united under a stronger leadership and aided by the strongest military alliance in the world. They won't stop till they have anything left to fight. 

 

The idea that they would agree to the Russian annexation of any of their land is ridiculous. Believe me, the people who would sign that treaty would forever be shamed and it would be historically seen as a much bigger national tragedy than the war itself. For Hungary the loss of our territory and the Trianon treaty has been seen as far bigger national tragedy than the loss of life during those times. Ukraine would view it the same way. 

Edited April 10, 2023 by Vektor

[Vic Liu 1,592]

11 minutes ago, Vektor said:

This is not the kind of war that ends until one side completely loses the ability to continue fighting.

 

You want to end it "diplomatically", but what many pro-Russian people mean by that is that they want the West to stop aiding Ukraine because they know the only way this war can conclude if Ukraine loses the ability to fight Russia. And they won't lose that ability if they are supported by NATO. 

 

This war will only end if the Ukrainian army collapses once they run out of supplies or manpower or if Ukraine captures Crimea. There are no other alternatives because Ukraine won't give up any land.

 

Hungary did the same under MUCH harder conditions against the "entire world" in 1919-20. We lost that war, but we didn't stop until the Romanian army captured Budapest. And that was in a divided Hungary, right after World War 1 and after a bloody Soviet revolution and we still fought till we had anything left because we were defending our historical borders. Ukraine is in a better position, united under a stronger leadership and aided by the strongest military alliance in the world. They won't stop till they have anything left to fight. 

 

The idea that they would agree to the Russian annexation of any of their land is ridiculous. Believe me, the people who would sign that treaty would forever be shamed and it would be historically seen as a much bigger national tragedy than the war itself. For Hungary the loss of our territory and the Trianon treaty has been seen as far bigger national tragedy than the loss of life during those times. Ukraine would view it the same way. 

Once again it’s all because we are both not the one on the court facing bullets and missiles. We are the one typing on keyboard and restructuring world order based on our own geopolitical idealism. Yet people are continuously dying. From my point of view, maybe your death makes hero at this point, but 20 years 50 years later, no one remember s you except your beloved ones. And your sacrifice may even become a joke at that timing. 

[Vektor 3,195]

2 hours ago, Vic Liu said:

Once again it’s all because we are both not the one on the court facing bullets and missiles. We are the one typing on keyboard and restructuring world order based on our own geopolitical idealism. Yet people are continuously dying. From my point of view, maybe your death makes hero at this point, but 20 years 50 years later, no one remember s you except your beloved ones. And your sacrifice may even become a joke at that timing. 

The people of Ukraine support their defensive war and the people of Russia support their "special military operation". 

 

Regardless of how or why that is the case and regardless of how they will feel about it in the future, it's the simple truth. Ukraine and its people want to fight this fight so we help them, and Russia and its people want to fight this fight so their allies help them. 

 

So I don't get this "it's easy for you to say that" narrative. I wouldn't support the war if the people of Ukraine would be against it. But they aren't. Most of those "pro-peace" people seemingly think that they know what's best for Ukraine (surrender), just like how Russia think they know what "best" for Ukraine (being neutral instead of being a NATO member state). Maybe what's best for Ukraine is what the people of Ukraine and its elected leadership think its best for the country. It's called self-determination, which is what Ukraine is fighting for in the past decade. And anything beyond that, like saying that they are "brainwashed by Western propaganda", just like what some said about the Hungarian freedom fighters in 1956, is deeply disrespectful to the Ukrainian people. 

Edited April 10, 2023 by Vektor

[ChandlerMne 624]

From what i read (not russian sources), parts of Ukrainian people are really into nazism, since ages. Bandera and so on. But its ok for the rest of the world, as whoever fights Russia is ok and ally.

Same thing in 1979, mujahedeens were western allies. Same ones who turned Afhganistan in failed state. 

Something doesnt seem right 

Edited April 11, 2023 by ChandlerMne

[lapaj 309]

1 hour ago, ChandlerMne said:

From what i read (not russian sources), parts of Ukrainian people are really into nazism, since ages. Bandera and so on. But its ok for the rest of the world, as whoever fights Russia is ok and ally.

Same thing in 1979, majahedeens were western allies. Same ones who turned Afhganistan in failed state. 

Something doesnt seem right 

 

 

 

[Vektor 3,195]

2 hours ago, ChandlerMne said:

From what i read (not russian sources), parts of Ukrainian people are really into nazism, since ages. Bandera and so on. But its ok for the rest of the world, as whoever fights Russia is ok and ally.

Same thing in 1979, majahedeens were western allies. Same ones who turned Afhganistan in failed state. 

Something doesnt seem right 

Part of literally every Western allied nation is into nazism. We had a literal neonazi militia marching in Budapest during the late 2000s, supported by a party that got 17% of the popular vote during the 2010 Hungarian elections. Does it mean that a Russian invasion of Hungary would suddenly be okay or that Hungary is a nazi state?

 

Magyar gárda: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magyar_Gárda

 

Neonazi murders of Roma people in Hungary: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008–2009_neo-Nazi_murders_of_Roma_in_Hungary

 

And guess what, it would still not be okay if Russia would suddenly attack us. To some extent every nation has these kind of people, some have more support and power, some have less. But ultimately what matters is that Ukraine isn't controlled by neonazis, just like how the far-right party never got majority support in Hungary. If you call Zelensky a far-right leader, you might as well call Orbán that as well.

 

 

Edited April 11, 2023 by Vektor

[nenad 361]

17 hours ago, Vektor said:

This is not the kind of war that ends until one side completely loses the ability to continue fighting.

 

You want to end it "diplomatically", but what many pro-Russian people mean by that is that they want the West to stop aiding Ukraine because they know the only way this war can conclude if Ukraine loses the ability to fight Russia. And they won't lose that ability if they are supported by NATO. 

 

This war will only end if the Ukrainian army collapses once they run out of supplies or manpower or if Ukraine captures Crimea. There are no other alternatives because Ukraine won't give up any land.

 

Hungary did the same under MUCH harder conditions against the "entire world" in 1919-20. We lost that war, but we didn't stop until the Romanian army captured Budapest. And that was in a divided Hungary, right after World War 1 and after a bloody Soviet revolution and we still fought till we had anything left because we were defending our historical borders. Ukraine is in a better position, united under a stronger leadership and aided by the strongest military alliance in the world. They won't stop till they have anything left to fight. 

 

The idea that they would agree to the Russian annexation of any of their land is ridiculous. Believe me, the people who would sign that treaty would forever be shamed and it would be historically seen as a much bigger national tragedy than the war itself. For Hungary the loss of our territory and the Trianon treaty has been seen as far bigger national tragedy than the loss of life during those times. Ukraine would view it the same way. 

Russia will never lose Crimea. If it comes to that, they'll just nuke Ukraine.