Weightlifting Qualification to Tokyo 2020 Summer Olympic Games

[DaniSRB 899]

Quota could have been reallocated to another continent, point is that biological woman is harmed.

 

Not that transwomen should be banned from sports, but from obvious reasons can't compete with biological women

 

If was transmen probably noone would care as men are already superior but with woman is simply not fair.....and it is kind of cheating while entire teams of clean athletes are banned because some of their collegues doped. Just noone care of them as it is not popular for media as superpopular lgbt stuff.

[mpjmcevoy 362]

58 minutes ago, DaniSRB said:

Quota could have been reallocated to another continent, point is that biological woman is harmed.

 

Not that transwomen should be banned from sports, but from obvious reasons can't compete with biological women

 

If was transmen probably noone would care as men are already superior but with woman is simply not fair.....and it is kind of cheating while entire teams of clean athletes are banned because some of their collegues doped. Just noone care of them as it is not popular for media as superpopular lgbt stuff.

If Hubbard had not been considered eligible, Charisma Tarrent, the Aussie lifter, would have got a 'World Ranking' place, rather than the Oceania place she has taken. This would have freed up that Oceania place, which as I understand it would have gone to a young Tongan, Nini Manumua.

 

It would be great if we did not conflate transgender inclusion, which is one difficult issue, with inclusion of athletes with rare intersex conditions (e.g. Caster Semenya) which is also difficult, but an entirely separate issue.

 

Caster was born, registered and raised as female. She has always, socially if not biologically, been a woman. While I reluctantly believe WA has come as close as they can to the right answer, Caster deserves nothing but sympathy and support.

 

Hubbard does not have any intersex condition, and was indisputably biologically and socially male from birth, until transition in mid 30's. That transition presumably was necessitated by gender dysphoria, but while IOC have allowed transgender people without full surgery (A much smaller cohort) to compete as women since 2015, we have had three very significant studies since 2019 that pretty much conclusively prove that the biological advantage male puberty creates - about 15% speed, 35% power and strength, and nearly 200% strike force (punching) - is barely reduced even by three years full testosterone suppression.

 

Hubbard may well be playing by the rules as they are, and seems to be entirely genuine in their gender identity,  and this is not a personal attack, but the 2015 rules are wrong - even the trans woman whose evidence was used to justify the 2015 rule change, Joanna Harper, basically admitted this year that the science shows that male pubertal advantage largely remains (there was a <5% drop over 3 years where one might expect and require a 30% drop). in other words, Hubbard retains the exact male advantage that is supposed to be eliminated by having female events in the first place.

 

I don't know what the answer is. A third category at the Olympic seems unlikely. a specific Trans (and DSD) category at the Paralympics, for example, seems more plausible, and could be done in a gender affirming way without undermining women.

 

But what has happened here is not sustainable. Far from increasing inclusion and acceptance of trans people, it is causing people who never had an issue with trans people in general to be come angry and resentful. It's actually making things worse. If Hubbard squeezes say Sarah Robles, or Emily Campbell out of a medal, it will become absolutely toxic.

 

My 2c.

[thiago_simoes 1,423]

19 hours ago, DaniSRB said:

Being against is now hate, oh well.......world should drown in hipocricity

 

Mental sickness you can't call anymore by name

You probably have no idea how disgusting you sound. It doesn't change the fact that, indeed, you are hateful and this comment is outrageous.

[thiago_simoes 1,423]

2 hours ago, Grassmarket said:

How is he a “victim”? He had his sporting career. He wasn’t very good. Along with seven billion other people. Now, at age 43, he wants to steal someone else’s career? He’s not the victim, Feagaiga Stowers  is the victim. She has had her Oceania gold medal & Olympic place stolen from her by a selfish, greedy, second rate man.  He deserves all the hatred he gets.

 

Feagaiga Stowers, say her name.

And you deserve to be banned.

If you think it's okay to call a woman "he", you're absolutely no different from those nazi and fascist scum who can't respect those who are different from you. Do you think you're advocating for justice for "defending" Stowers? You're just a hateful human being. That's who you are. Do you think you have the right to misgender someone? You're not entitled to anything. 

Disgusting.

[Dolby 735]

2 minutes ago, mpjmcevoy said:

Caster was born, registered and raised as female. She has always, socially if not biologically, been a woman. While I reluctantly believe WA has come as close as they can to the right answer, Caster deserves nothing but sympathy and support.

 

I am sorry but selectively choosing the events in which Caster participated or was likely to participate is not even close to a right answer. It is just a knee-jerk reaction to the fact that Caster, Niyonsaba and Wambui swept the podium in Rio. 

[kungshamra71 892]

There was an episode of South Park (my favourite show ) from two years ago that was about this topic. (in an obvious highly satirical and offensive way, as it is normal in South Park )

 

I think it's quite a difficult topic to handle though, in one way it makes sense to allow any woman to have the opportunity to do and compete in professional sports, but in the other you also don't want to give unfair advantages to those who have it through biological reasons....  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

 

[Grassmarket 3,408]

30 minutes ago, thiago_simoes said:

And you deserve to be banned.

If

And this is how we know it is a con: because like all forms of thought control, the argument can only be sustained by censorship.

[Federer91 2,796]

This thread should have been closed 2 days ago, since it was to be expected that we would tare each other apart.... 

 

This is exactly why i'm holding back, even though i can say a lot of things, because there is no point other than insulting each other.

[mpjmcevoy 362]

1 hour ago, Dolby said:

I am sorry but selectively choosing the events in which Caster participated or was likely to participate is not even close to a right answer. It is just a knee-jerk reaction to the fact that Caster, Niyonsaba and Wambui swept the podium in Rio. 

It is a kinder answer than the strictly logical/rational one - biologically Caster, Niyonsaba and Wambui are male, albeit with a significant DSD condition (In Caster's case at least, almost certainly 46 XY 5-ARD, which is an absolutely male specific condition). By the letter of the law, they should be kept out of all female only events. WA however have attempted to acknowledge the difficult social reality here for a group who would never be able to compete equally with other males for precisely the same medical reason.

 

If you want the right, right answer, then they should be excluded from female events altogether. There's nothing knee-jerk about that, it's the rational conclusion when their conditions are discovered. WA have done the best they can to mitigate that harsh rationality.

[Vektor 3,326]

The main issue with all of this is that we don't have enough trans athletes to create more categories besides "Men" and "Women". 

 

There's a similar solution to this, but I am afraid trans people would see it as degrading: having them compete at the Paralympics where we have many different categories anyway. The issue with this is that Paralympics is officially for disabled people and being trans isn't a disability. If IOC can rebrand the Paralympics to be for "special" athletes who fall outside of the norm what's considered eligible for the normal Games, maybe it wouldn't be hurtful for trans people to compete there in their own category.

 

Or maybe crate a queer Olympics where trans people can have their own events. That might actually be more fun for them.