kapil857

Does anyone know what seeding system will be followed at the Asian qualifier?

Also what about the Olympics itself? I know every cat in Olympics will have 16 wrestlers - so do we still have 4 seeds in every cat or just 2?

14 minutes ago, intoronto said:

Canada wins!

 

Hopefully and upset is possible next game!

As an Indian, we supported you wholeheartedly in the SF against USA, but time now to turn against u guys  

Need Argentina to win final and take themselves out of the Oly qualifiers...

1 minute ago, intoronto said:

https://www.cbc.ca/sports/olympics/pan-am-game-2019-lima-peru-1.5230741 With Canadian VPN

Thanks a lot...

11 minutes ago, LDOG said:

 

Yes, it would if I didn't make a mistake. Canada would climb above Italy, Chile and South Africa, even if the latter wins the african qualifier. 

As someone having done the calculations independently, I can second this...

Canada will rise above Chile, SA and Italy and will enter the 8th-11th seed bracket at Oly qualifiers along with China, Korea and USA (assuming that Argentina beats Canada in the final and that Belarus or Russia dont win the European Championships)...

High Indian interest here as well, as a Canada win will assure India stays in the 4th-7th seed bracket and thus plays Oly qualifiers at home...

Does anyone have a live streaming link by the way??

Since the discussion is currently on TV Shows, if anyone wants to watch something AWESOME but still different from the well known American shows, try the South Korean tv show The Genius. 

Available here - https://www.reddit.com/r/TheGenius/comments/70jog1/links_to_all_subbed_episodes_of_the_genius_s14/

It is my ALL TIME favorite show and nothing else even comes close (and I watch a LOT of TV). 

It is a show about people playing different and highly interesting cerebral/social games, which should translate very well for Totallympians with our shared love of sport and competition.

The only slight issue is that it's in Korean, means you need to follow the english subtitles. Every one who watches the genius has only 1 of 2 reactions - (1) It is AWESOME or (2) I cudn't handle the subtitles. But it's also the first show I ever watched with subtitles, so it's not that difficult and as long as u can handle them, u'll be in for a treat.

21 minutes ago, Dragon said:

After backing down over Russia and doping they can't be seen to the same again.

AIBA have made a disastrous mistake here.

Three possibilities left

1 Rakhimov resigns.

2 AIBA is abolished

3 Boxing is removed from Tokyo 2020.

 2 please, pretty please 

4 minutes ago, heywoodu said:

Note to self: bring suitcase with toilet paper if I ever travel to India  

i didnt say shops didnt sell it. We just dont use it. 

9 hours ago, JoshMartini007 said:

 

They will because the assumption is that the suspension will be temporarily. AIBA can take a hardline approach and at the very least would cause the Olympic tournament to be very diluted.

I'd agree with you but not when the Olympics is involved. If the alternate body wud have been in charge of holding, say, a world championship, federations might have still been strong-armed and stayed loyal to AIBA. But with Olympic participation on the line, they'll show AIBA the finger...

13 minutes ago, heywoodu said:

I've heard they really needed to drop a little bomb in there but then found out some asshole left the paper roll empty and didn't replace it. 

Nah - India is one of the ones missing. We use water, not toilet paper to do our business 

3 hours ago, JoshMartini007 said:

A professional boxing tournament without letting amateurs at least attempt to qualify is no good either. Also, if AIBA really wants to play hardball there won't be any recognized national federations either (as they risk being sanctioned by AIBA), though I guess they could go the route of having all the boxers compete under the Olympic flag, but I imagine some young boxers may also not want to risk getting banned from future competitions.

But once IOC de-recognizes AIBA, do the national federations really care about AIBA anymore ??

I wud imagine that other than the few favored nations like Russia, Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan and Azerbaijan, no one really likes AIBA or cares about them as they keep robbing their boxers. Some powerful boxing nations like USA, UK and Ireland clearly hate AIBA.

Its a little idealistic, and I think eventually all this will just boil over, but the ideal solution for me would be for IOC to suspend AIBA and continue boxing at Tokyo through an interim body. Of course, that doesnt mean only pro boxers. Amateur boxers and proper qualifying tournaments still have to be there. And ideally, a change in the current bogus scoring system.

16 hours ago, MHSN said:

 

there is but not in just one link. that's complicated lol

they just called up Fris on Mat C. you better hurry if you want to watch

I always use this

https://arena.unitedworldwrestling.org/sport-event/show/b6b4b24a-d22e-11e8-b941-080027548b1b/live

1 hour ago, MHSN said:

I wonder if we really had a "draw" or someone just handpicked it. unbelievably one sided draw for all 3 weights for tomorrow and of course all 3 Iranians are in the tougher side as usual. but this time they had no chance to begin with. makes it easier for me to just watch and enjoy without any expectations.

 

we have 10 wrestlers in top half of 130kg, all 4 medalists from last year are here ! plus two Olympic bronze medalists. and current World Junior champion (who is a gold medal treat even this year) from Georgia plus former world bronze medalist Chernetskyi of Ukraine. which means 8 out of 10 are former or current World or Olympic medalists. and you can add a guy from Iran to the list to make it complete. we also have Kazakhstan here !

 

and NOBODY in bottom draw is a former world medalist. there are 2-3 good wrestlers like the German Popp but none of them are big deal comparing to those 8 wrestlers in top half. looks like a perfect draw for Balint Lam of Hungary !

 

and if you take a look at 97kg draw, Balazs Kiss from Hungary will NOT face any former world medalist until the final ! only Kajaia probably can do damage here I think. while in bottom half we have Aleksanyan, Evloev, Naderishvili, Noumonvi, Hrabovic, Nuriyev and 3-4 more good wrestlers.

 

77kg draw is no better. again Hungarian wrestler in the easier side, at least this time Lorincz can't walk into the final. there is Kim Hyeon-woo.

 

considering the draw Bacsi and Korpasi had yesterday, I wonder how is that possible all Hungarian wrestlers are getting super easy draws like this.

Hmmm ...add 57 kg women to this as well. Completely stacked bottom half (especially bottom quarter), Hungarian girl in top half ended with Bronze...

Heartiest congratulations to Sourav Kothari on winning the World Billiards Championships !!

New name added to added to India's long list of world champions in billiards

http://www.wbeventsonline.com/?page_id=57&TID=282

7 hours ago, Dolby said:

IIRC Ritu was supposed to take part in 53kg only but shifted to 48kg after Vinesh's withdrawal. So, transitioning to 53kg should not be a big trouble. Regarding men's freestyle, we should give chance to youngsters. They can't perform worse than the present squad. Bajrang has matured a lot in recent past. He is a definite medal hope for Tokyo. Sumit has improved but qualifying for the games is still an uphill task for him. Sushil would try and come back but he should learn graceful retirement from Yogeshwar Dutt. In Greco-Roman as well, we should look at youngsters. With good exposure, some of them might be world class in 4-5 years time. 

Lets get the categories right guys - its 50 kg, 53 kg, 57 kg, 63 kg, 68 kg and 76 kg at Tokyo. 

The team does look pretty good....

4 minutes ago, MHSN said:

 

first that was stupid only because JPN was leading the match and you don't want to lose a cheap point (plus your challenge chance) for a situation like this

 

but no that one wasn't dubious. clearly a 2. Japan's knee was on the mat when the action started. That doesn't count as a feet to back 4pts throw. the attacking wrestler himself also has to be in standing position.

Ah ok...got it...thanks a lot  

22 minutes ago, MHSN said:

 

I watched it again, the first action was a bit dubious. that also could be a 4 but I think the Russian wrestler's bottom hit the mat first before getting exposed .maybe a millisecond before that . 2 was probably more correct but still they could justify giving him a 4. there is also another way justify the two. the Japanese initial attack failed. then the Russian tried a counter attack turn (which made him the attacker) but he threw the Japanese on his own back. in this case the attacking wrestler gives up 2pts and not 4. this is very clear within the rules the attacking wrestler never gives up 4pts in any case.

 

and yeah you are right about that action in 2nd period. I didn't notice that "blue" made the challenge and not red. that was a very stupid challenge IMO. that was clearly a 2. and 1 for RUS for counter attack takedown.

 

yes they should but they NEVER reset the clock in situations like this . that was just 3 seconds but I had seen situations like someone had a takedown and scored multiple gut-wrench and then after the challenge they found it the original takedown was illegal. therefore they erased all those points but didn't reset the clock ! I'm talking about something like 30 seconds. which is unbelievable. .I'm not sure about this but I think there is nothing in the rules about resetting the clock. UWW officials are not the smartest persons in the world.

 

btw something about the officiating in wrestling , we have 3 officials. center referee, judge (the one in front of the camera) and the mat chairman (the one you don't see usually. sitting behind the camera) the mat chairman is usually the one making the decisions. the other just always watch at him and just do whatever he does. and only few selected UWW officials can sit there as a mat chairman.

Actually my question was about the 2nd period - the one where blue made the challenge. The action that happens with Jpn leading 10-8 and 28 secs left to go. It was initially given 2-1, JPN challenged asking for 4, challenge was turned down and hence Russia got extra point to make it 12-10. You say that it your opinion, it was a stupid challenge and a clear 2. Just want to understand why. To me, it seems like a 4 - JPN seems to be the clear attacker till they hit the ground and they seem to go from feet to Russian's back, at which point Russia counters and gets the 1. I am guessing you are saying it was 2 as may be Russia's bottom hit the ground a milisecond before JPN. but seemed like a 4 to me (and of course the JPN coach who challenged).

On 10/24/2018 at 02:47, MHSN said:

 

yeah a bit hard for the refs as well. so many dubious situations but I think the final score was just fair. very good officiating. even though they had to be corrected by challenge review panel lol

 

in first action, JPN had a takedown first (a bit dubious if he completed the TD or not. I think he did) then RUS lifted him from the mat and threw him for 4 (that's a 4 not 2 because RUS was on his feet and not sitting on the mat) and then JPN pushed him out of the mat. so 4-3 for Russia was correct.

 

in second action in first period (didn't go to challenge but still the call might be considered dubious) JPN attacked and RUS trying for a turn exposed himself and also JPN but Japanese wrestler's shoulders didn't touch the mat and in this case attacking wrestler doesn't lose point. so 2-0 for JPN was correct. (they gave 4pts to the defensive wrestler in such action even less less dubious than this one in 2016 Olympics in Gomez-Novruzov match which was a big robbery)

 

first action in second period. something more or less similar to the last one. expect this time. RUS wasn't sitting on the mat and when JPN threw him to his back none of them had contact with the mat except their feet. first they gave just 2 to JPN but after the challenge that was 4. which was correct.

 

second action in 2nd period with 30 seconds to go. more or less simllar to the 2nd one. JPN attacked , RUS on defensive mode tried a throw but his back exposed and then he had a takedown. at first they gave 2-1 to JPN after the challenge it was 2-2. but to me the correct call was 2-1. because Takedown on counter attack is just 1pt (and not 2) they gave him 2 justifying that by probably saying JPN also had exposure , to me he didn't. I guess they knew that but since they gave the previous one to JPN and the mafia boss Tedeyev was there. they didn't want to make him very angry ! (later he showed how he will react when he is angry)

 

at 14-10 . RUS on par-terre escaped from the mat very obvious. that's 1pts penalty and continue of the par-terre position in center of the mat. center referee stupidly forgot that and after few seconds they reminded him of the mistake.

Thanks for the magnificent analysis. I just watched the match with the analysis by the side just to understand the rules better.

So one question - with 30 seconds left to go in the 2nd period, JPN clearly took down Russia onto his back, and both of them were on their feet when action began. So why was it a 2 and not a 4 (JPN coach clearly thought it was 4). Is it because JPN didnt have control with the Russian on his back ?? (Also, in this action, the final result after review WAS 2-1 in favor of Japan, and not 2-2. Russia got the extra point because of a failed challenge from Japan).

Also, in the end when they put the Russian in par-terre, shudnt the clock have been reset for 4 seconds to 7 seconds. It didn't matter much but shud have been done right ??

10 hours ago, LDOG said:

 

No, anyone that reads the format closely will arrive to this same conclusion: it makes absolutely no difference. Both indian teams have a high ranking so there's almost no chance they won't qualify for the olympic play-offs. Even if both teams finish last place in this hockey series they will still reach the play-offs 99% sure because there are some remaining spots that will be given by ranking. So hockey series doesn't matter for India.

 

 

The only actual difference is that while waiting for the play-offs your teams will be "warming up" with the likes of Mexico, Poland or Fiji instead of Netherlands, Germany or Australia if they were in the pro league.... 

The other big difference is how will the rankings be affected by the hockey pro league and the hockey series. I beleive FIH has still NOT announced how the rankings will work. While India has great rankings right now, if playing in pro league itself can get a lot of points then it can be a problem for India - but yeah, unlikely.

And yeah, difference in competition level can be quite a big thing when it gets to the actual olympics (think we'll be fine in the playoffs)..

24 minutes ago, MHSN said:

what a match both wrestlers gave everything they had. I was expecting Bajrang to win the gold but damn who was this guy Otoguro ?! I didn't even know him before yesterday. this is what only Japan capable of. only Japan can send someone completely unknown and win medal. they did that with Higuchi in Rio. or Shinobu Ota.

 

but I don't know if he was injured or faking injury to have a bit rest.

The supposed "mistaken" challenge clearly also played into the Japanese's hands in terms of rest. Great bout though.

Also, Otoguro is World Cadet Champion and had teched Takatani (Japanese silver medalist at Asian Games) in Japanese trials..

So have they always given shiny championship belts to the gold medalists or is this worlds the first time ??

BAJRANG !!! 

17 hours ago, nitinsanker said:

 

First I was referring to world championship medals and not youth olympic medals 

 

Second you cannot  produce good senior results without good junior results , Please show me any country which dominates senior world  championships/ olympics in a sport  who does not do well at the junior level in that sport , so junior results are a precursor to senior results .....and hence to Olympic results. so it is critical to do well at junior level first .....

 

Third I do appreciate the point that the juniors are in 2-3 year time frame while the seniors have a 10 year time frame , so the indian team needs to do consistently well ( produce 24 medals consistently at least for 6-10 years to get that level of senior / olympic performance )...... also from the 4-5 junior players 1 or 2 senior players may come ..... so every junior player may not become a good senior player but almost every great senior player was a great junior player ........ check it out 

 

Sania - Junior World championship Gold 

Sindhu - Junior world championship silver 

Yogeshwar - cadet world champion in wrestling 1999 lodz  

Sushil - Cadet world champion in wrestling  1999 lodz 

 

shooting unfortunately the junior championships were not regularly conducted till recently 

so from the crop of great junior players over a 5-6 competitions you would get 1 great senior level player especially in sports like wrestling or boxing

 

Just some counterpoints

"Please show me any country which dominates senior world  championships/ olympics in a sport  who does not do well at the junior level in that sport"

I have not done any analysis but my first guess here would be USA. Does MUCH better in senior events than junior events, just from what it seems to me. Of course, this doesn't mean they have no junior champs. But in terms of volume and frequency of achievements, especially when compared with other sporting powers, USA wud be found lagging in juniors. I think one of the reasons for that is their inter-collegiate program is excellent. So many stars are discovered only in college, as opposed to in high school. Another prominent example would be Australia. I wud even venture a guess that many European countries, led by UK, wud also follow that template - senior performance better than junior is terms of volume and frequency.

"so every junior player may not become a good senior player but almost every great senior player was a great junior player"

Not exactly. I'd say every great senior player was at least a "good" junior player. And when u change that distinction, the pool becomes much wider and u dont really know who wud go on to become big.  

One of the examples I have heard is of Roger Federer. In the juniors, Federer was doubles partner to a guy named Oliver Rochus. Between the two, Rochus was generally considered the far more talented and many people, including Federer's own coach, used to laugh at Federer when he dreamt of becoming the best in the world. Well, we all know how that played out...

Another example is our own Srikanth. OGQ had picked Praneeth over him to support when they were young, but they were proved wrong. Viren has even sort of said that it was a mistake but there's no way to avoid it, as Praneeth was much better in the junior days.

For me, a far better metric would be when someone graduated to the seniors. Manu Bhaker for eg doesn't have too many junior achievements to show before already being big in seniors. She just waltzed into the senior team at the beginning of the year from nowhere. Hima Das was already India's senior best when she won the U20 world champs. And just abt a year before, she was trying to become a sprinter. A couple of years earlier, she wasn't even into athletics.

"shooting unfortunately the junior championships were not regularly conducted till recently "

Well that is just not true. They have been conducted since 1994. We won our first junior gold through Navanath Faratade in 2006. Based on a recent interview of him, by around 2008, he was nowhere near national reckoning and essentially quit professional shooting soon after that (though he goes to the annual nationals till today).

 "so from the crop of great junior players over a 5-6 competitions you would get 1 great senior level player especially in sports like wrestling or boxing"

Yes that is probably the more likely conversion rate. Unfortunately doesn't add up to "I believe in statistics if we have 20-24 medals today 5-6 years from today we will have at least 12-15 medals at the senior olympics".

To provide an extreme analogy, I was recently thinking that winning a junior world title is may be like topping ur 10th standard board exams. It is an absolutely magnificent achievement, but a new guy/girl does it every year. And while many (though definitely not all) of them will have successful fruitful careers, extremely few of those toppers will go on to become the CEO of a large MNC (which is what an olympic medal is).

Can we still hit double digits in 2024 ?? Absolutely. But we may even end up like Rio. Its just too far away to pass judgement. Either way, I wud much rather look to senior results for indicators than junior results.

And if we are lucky and these next two years go really well, and with Tokyo being very hot during August, I am hoping for at least 6-8 medals in Tokyo itself. Lot will depend on shooting though.

7 hours ago, heywoodu said:

Isn't it confusing that half of the Indian athletes only have one name? I mean, there must be millions of Vijay's and Manjeet's  

It is actually very annoying for many of us Indians as well.

The thing is that a large number of our wrestlers and boxers come from the state of Haryana.

Now I am no expert in the subject, and somebody can correct me if I am wrong, but from what I understand, many people in Haryana believe in never ever using your surname with your name because your surname identifies your caste. 

There has been some unfortunate caste-based violence in the past in Haryana and, as a result, many believe that the best way to avoid it is to just never ever reveal your caste as it doesn't matter. In fact, I think some of the big boxing and wrestling stables in Haryana actually have a rule that you are not allowed to use your surname.

4 hours ago, sameerph said:

 

Yes, your point about 2-year period field for juniors in very important. I think for seniors we need to consider 10 year period as average. So, conversion from junior medals to senior medals has to be around 1/5th or so. Therefore, 24 medals at junior world champiionships would mea around 5-6 medals at senior level. That was our level already at London 2012. 

 

Another point is we had 8 medals in youth olympics 8 years back. None of those medalists have gone on to get anywhere close to being medalists in olympics and that 8 medal haul got converted to only 2 medals in Rio 2016.

 

So, we have to be cautious about extrapolating these youth olympic medals and say that we will go to 10 medals level in 2024 olympics. First up I want us to get back r 6 medal level at Tokyo and then see how much we can improve over it by 2024.

Completely agreed. Junior achievements always need to be taken with a grain of salt. We in India tend to go overboard with them.

2 hours ago, nitinsanker said:

Well look at facts ......Currently and I counted just as of now we have world junior championship medals in the following sports ( in olympic categories removing non olympic ) 

 

Shooting - 9 - 2018 ( removing non olympic and team medals ) 

Wrestling - 5 ( I Have reduced our 7 medals to 5 proportionately ) - 2018

Boxing - 4 ( Again I have reduced proportionately 8 to 4 ) - 2018

Athletics - 1 ( Hima of course ) -2018

Badminton - 0 last year -  will happen in November but I am putting 1 

Archery - 2 -2017

weightlifting - 1 - world junior 2018

hockey 1 - junior world cup 2016 

cycling -1 - junior world championships 

 

total Junior world championship medals for India at this point in time 24 

 

I have been following olympic sports in  India for the last 20 years ........ can you point out a single point in time where we have so many junior world championship medals 

we even have good tt , gymnastics and  judo  players ........barring tennis where there does not seem any real good young talent 

 

take 8 years back period of time 2012-2014 ...... check out the records of junior world championships ( !!!! ) 

 

you would find we were approx 

 

1-2 shooting 

2-3  Boxing 

1-2 Wrestling 

0 atheletics 

1 badminton 

archery 1 

weightlifting 0 

hockey 0 

 

total junior medals in the period 6-7 years  ago - 6-7 

 

and lo and behold we are likely 5-6 medals at the olympics 

 

There has been a huge improvement at the junior levels ( no political statements but raw facts ...you could correct the numbers if I am wrong ) 

 

I believe in statistics if we have 20-24 medals today 5-6 years from today we will have at least 12-15 medals at the senior olympics 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hope you are right but I'll believe the hype when I see performance at the senior level. Just looking at the numbers provided by you, it seems to me that the only real gain has been shooting.

And shooting is a gain no doubt - as a country we have definitely improved from where we were in 2014. But I at least am hoping to see those gains in 2020 itself as opposed to 2024. 

Still - I personally dont believe in the methodology of counting junior medals at all. Fact is, in today's sporting landscape, youngsters across the world are maturing faster. The best juniors are already competing in the seniors and most of them stop competing in juniors once they graduate to seniors (like our own Sania had done when she was 16). Indian juniors however keep competing in junior events even after having already made a significant mark at the senior level (like Manu, Mehuli, Saurabh etc) as even those wins are starting to make them stars.

Then of course there is always the huge issue of age-fudging. Also, by nature, junior athletes are essentially competing against a field of athletes born in a 2-yr period which is small competition as compared to seniors. 

Also, if some sort of analysis is done, I would venture a guess that it would be found that 18-yr olds winning an U18 world title rarely make it to the absolute elite level in seniors (because the title is often won with the best 18-yr olds absent and already competing in the seniors). However, a 15-16 yr old winning an U18 title wud have a much better chance.