[OFF TOPIC] Politics Thread

[Olympian1010 8,071]

Absolutely terrific article about masculinity in the United States. I’ve never felt more understood quite frankly. I would have loved to have been interviewed for those piece. There’s so much to talk about in here. It’s a very long article, but highly recommend reading it if you get the chance. If anyone does end up reading it I’d love to talk about it. Here’s a link:

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/01/the-miseducation-of-the-american-boy/603046/?utm_medium=social&utm_content=edit-promo&utm_campaign=the-atlantic&utm_source=twitter&utm_term=2019-12-16T14%3A58%3A53
 

@Rdbc you would probably relate to this as well I imagine. Maybe @bmo as well.

[Olympian1010 8,071]

 

[Dolby 738]

  On 12/17/2019 at 7:16 AM, Olympian1010 said:

 

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Simple thumb rule: If you don't want police to use force to crush protests, don't fucking burn buses or pelt stones on the police. 

 

P.S. Still waiting for your response to my previous queries. So, repeating them here: 1) What is the issues you have with CAB and 2) What is the connection of Slumdog Millionaire with all this. 

[Wumo 3,016]

@Dolby

I have a couple of questions regarding CAB.

 

1. Are Ahmadiyya-muslims included under CAB?

2. In case they are not included under CAB, could you explain me the reason why?

 

UN has openly criticized Pakistan for its persecution of Ahmadiyya-muslims:

https://www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?NewsID=14658&

 

I'm aware you have written this about persecuted Muslims:

"Persecuted Muslims from these three countries are still free to apply for refugee/citizenship of India. Those applications will be dealt with according to the existing laws. Similarly, even Hindus from around the world are not covered under this law". 

https://totallympics.com/index.php?/topic/822-off-topic-politics-thread/&do=findComment&comment=262812

 

I know my post can seem very critical, but in reality it stem from my lack of knowledge of India. I don't know much about Indian politics or India as a society, so I'm curious to know more about it from an Indian's point of view. 

Edited December 17, 2019 by Wumo

[Dolby 738]

  On 12/17/2019 at 10:22 AM, Wumo said:

@Dolby

I have a couple of questions regarding CAB.

 

1. Are Ahmadiyya-muslims included under CAB?

2. In case they are not included under CAB, could you explain me the reason why?

 

UN has openly criticized Pakistan for its persecution of Ahmadiyya-muslims:

https://www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?NewsID=14658&

 

I'm aware you have written this about persecuted Muslims:

"Persecuted Muslims from these three countries are still free to apply for refugee/citizenship of India. Those applications will be dealt with according to the existing laws. Similarly, even Hindus from around the world are not covered under this law". 

https://totallympics.com/index.php?/topic/822-off-topic-politics-thread/&do=findComment&comment=262812

 

I know my post can seem very critical, but in reality it stem from my lack of knowledge of India. I don't know much about Indian politics or India as a society, so I'm curious to know more about it from an Indian's point of view. 

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No, Ahmadiyas/Qadianis are not included in the CAB. Reason being India considers Ahmadiyas as Muslims. If we have to include them as a class in this bill we have to first recognise them as non-Muslims. (In India, we don't have a common Civil Code. Personal Laws are defined according to religion and declassifying them as Muslims would have major legal issues for them.) 

 

I am happy to answer any queries that you or anyone else has on CAB. I can't expect you to have full knowledge about these issues. International media has been spreading a lot of misinformation about CAB, so it is expected that people would have a lot of questions about it. Can't even blame international media fully as our own media is complicit in misinformation. 

 

[Wumo 3,016]

  On 12/17/2019 at 10:34 AM, Dolby said:

No, Ahmadiyas/Qadianis are not included in the CAB. Reason being India considers Ahmadiyas as Muslims. If we have to include them as a class in this bill we have to first recognise them as non-Muslims. (In India, we don't have a common Civil Code. Personal Laws are defined according to religion and declassifying them as Muslims would have major legal issues for them.) 

 

I am happy to answer any queries that you or anyone else has on CAB. I can't expect you to have full knowledge about these issues. International media has been spreading a lot of misinformation about CAB, so it is expected that people would have a lot of questions about it. Can't even blame international media fully as our own media is complicit in misinformation. 

 

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What I interpret from reading the media's criticism on this bill is that it doesn't include a group like the Ahmadiyas in it. As you write, India and almost all of the world recognise them as Muslims, and I do understand the bill doesn't include Muslims, but I think the Indian government and parliament could have been spared some of the criticism if they had also included persecuted groups of muslims in/from Pakistan, Bangladesh and Afghanistan in CAB.

 

In short, I think the criticism from Western media is that the bill should have included all persecuted religious groups in/from Pakistan, Bangladesh and Afghanistan, instead of all, but Muslim groups.  

Edited December 17, 2019 by Wumo

[Dolby 738]

  On 12/17/2019 at 11:13 AM, Wumo said:

What I interpret from reading the media's criticism on this bill is that it doesn't include a group like the Ahmadiyas in it. As you write, India and almost all of the world recognise them as Muslims, and I do understand the bill doesn't include Muslims, but I think the Indian government and parliament could have been spared some of the criticism if they had also included persecuted groups of muslims in/from Pakistan, Bangladesh and Afghanistan in CAB.

 

In short, I think the criticism from Western media is that the bill should have included all persecuted religious groups in/from Pakistan, Bangladesh and Afghanistan, instead of all, but Muslim groups.  

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The bill doesn't include Jews as well. The bill doesn't include atheists as well. The bill doesn't include Bahai as well. The bill doesn't include Kalash religion as well. 

 

As I said earlier, these ad-hoc arrangements have been made by Indian government as and when situation arises. Previously, when large number of Bangladeshis arrived at time of their independence struggle, we granted citizenship to large number of Bangladeshis Muslims as well. Even in this bill, it is not a continuous amnesty but there is a cut-off date of 31 December 2014. So, this Bill is merely in response to a problem and not a template for future. Even now, noted Bangladeshi author Taslima Nasreen, who is atheist and a vociferous critic of current government, has been given long-term visa on priority basis. So, if in future if we encounter a situation where Ahmadiyas or atheists or some other group is seeking refuge in India, we will give them citizenship as well. 

 

To give an example, if Denmark proposes a bill that gives citizenship to Yezidi refugees from Iraq and Syria, would we laud it or say the move is wrong because it doesn't give same rights to the other poor people fleeing ISIS? 

[Wumo 3,016]

  On 12/17/2019 at 11:38 AM, Dolby said:

The bill doesn't include Jews as well. The bill doesn't include atheists as well. The bill doesn't include Bahai as well. The bill doesn't include Kalash religion as well. 

 

As I said earlier, these ad-hoc arrangements have been made by Indian government as and when situation arises. Previously, when large number of Bangladeshis arrived at time of their independence struggle, we granted citizenship to large number of Bangladeshis Muslims as well. Even in this bill, it is not a continuous amnesty but there is a cut-off date of 31 December 2014. So, this Bill is merely in response to a problem and not a template for future. Even now, noted Bangladeshi author Taslima Nasreen, who is atheist and a vociferous critic of current government, has been given long-term visa on priority basis. So, if in future if we encounter a situation where Ahmadiyas or atheists or some other group is seeking refuge in India, we will give them citizenship as well. 

 

To give an example, if Denmark proposes a bill that gives citizenship to Yezidi refugees from Iraq and Syria, would we laud it or say the move is wrong because it doesn't give same rights to the other poor people fleeing ISIS? 

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This I didn't know. I appreciate this information.

 

To answer your question. I don't think Denmark in it's current situation would give citizenship to any groups outside the country, but I do so the point in your argument. 

 

Thanks for taking the time to come with your opinion on this discussion. Your posts have been very helpful to provide me with a nuanced view on the discussion of this bill. 

[Rdbc 48]

  On 12/17/2019 at 7:10 AM, Olympian1010 said:

@Rdbc you would probably relate to this as well I imagine

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Wow very interesting read, I guess after reading this I grew up pretty lucky having a good group of guy friends who didn't care I was gay and living in a place where "toxic masculinity" was to that extent. 

I do think though guys at least where I'm from are getting better about opening up about feelings I know plenty of guys who openly talk about going to therapy, dealing with depression, etc. Hopefully one day everyone can just be themselves without caring about what others think, I believe thats what it all boils down to. 

[Olympian1010 8,071]

  On 12/17/2019 at 8:45 AM, Dolby said:

Simple thumb rule: If you don't want police to use force to crush protests, don't fucking burn buses or pelt stones on the police. 

 

P.S. Still waiting for your response to my previous queries. So, repeating them here: 1) What is the issues you have with CAB and 2) What is the connection of Slumdog Millionaire with all this. 

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I’m going to assume CAB is the name of citizenship law? My biggest problem is that it seems like a step in the wrong direction towards peace in the area. Hindi nationalism has been on rise for the last few years, and this law seems fueled by it.

 

Slumdog Millionaire is how most Americans learned of Muslim mistreatment by Hindus.