Judo IJF World Championships 2023 Road to Paris 2024

[heywoodu 13,614]

4 minutes ago, phelps said:

no, the rule has been changed recently once again because of many unfair calls in the past couple of years...

 

unless the leg is intentionally grabbed, there's no reason for the refs to automatically call the shido, if they see that there's no real rule infringment, they can let the action stand as developed.

 

and that was yesterday's case: there's absolutely no grab by Pinot, but only an incidental contact.

 

even Ylania Scapin (multiple Olympic medallist) said on the Italian TV that she undertands why they did make that call, but she was absolutely against it because it was totally against the spirit of the new rule enforcement.

 

and I agree with her.

 

there are always points where refs/judges can find a way to justify their doing, but it doesn't mean they're right "in the interest of the game".

Then they should change the rule, but in this case it was pretty clear (in the replay one can see she went for the leg during the move, not just accidentally touched it). Although I think we'll debate endlessly without agreeing about it anyway  

[phelps 6,999]

10 hours ago, pedja789 said:

Well, you don't have the correct information. In 2022 (breakthrough year for Diyora), Keldiyorova has beaten Giuffrida 3 times in a row (all of them GS semifinals), she lost only at the Masters in Jerusalem, she lost first 2 and it is 3-3 at the moment. It's not like my opinions are based on horoscope, I also base them on previous results.

actually, I have the correct information (I only excluded the first 2 matchups before Keldiyorova's breakthrough).

 

as I worte, Keldiyorova used to be untouchable for Giuffrida until the end of last season, when the Italian found the right coutermeasures to face the Uzbek and finally won against her at the Masters.

 

but still, she didn't lose to Keldiyorova last week, she lost against Pupp, so this is quite different (she always won against the Hungarian before and we're not talking of a young rising star).

 

sometimes it's not the final result that makes things disappointing, it's how things develop, it's how you come to the final result. this is the case.

 

for what concerns Bellandi, she was the first one to be desperate for the missed chance (as she knows better than any other people in the world that's not sure she will still be the strongest on the field the next time...chances have to be caught when they happen...nobody knows the future).

 

p.s. don't worry for me to be disappointed...I'm used to it...just yesterday it happened multiple times. but I can live with that, it's just "watching some sports on tv", nothing that really matters in actual life. 

[phelps 6,999]

7 minutes ago, heywoodu said:

Then they should change the rule, but in this case it was pretty clear (in the replay one can see she went for the leg during the move, not just accidentally touched it). Although I think we'll debate endlessly without agreeing about it anyway  

they already changed the interpretation of the rule.

 

to give an automatic shido, now there must be a true grab of the leg, which was not yesterday's case (Pinot is only helping herself in the move with his arm...and it's just that kind of natural move that follows the momentum of the throw that IJF wanted not to be punished anymore).

 

however, yeah, I think we could go ahead for quite a long time debating on that without agreeing. 

[pedja789 85]

6 hours ago, phelps said:

actually, I have the correct information (I only excluded the first 2 matchups before Keldiyorova's breakthrough).

 

as I worte, Keldiyorova used to be untouchable for Giuffrida until the end of last season, when the Italian found the right coutermeasures to face the Uzbek and finally won against her at the Masters.

 

but still, she didn't lose to Keldiyorova last week, she lost against Pupp, so this is quite different (she always won against the Hungarian before and we're not talking of a young rising star).

You wrote, and I quote, "and she won the last couple of times they faced each other". "Couple" means 2 or more, "couple" would imply that you have a valid premise for your conclusion, which you do not. Given that the "right coutermeasures" was Keldiyorova's decline in form, I would not rely on that in the future.

Maybe Pupp found "right coutermeasures", she is very experienced and she is definitly not clean highway to Giuffrida. And you make it sound like Pupp lost countless times to Giuffrida, I found 2 (for future reference that is a couple). Back to my original point, Odette Giuffrida did good at this competition, and she deserves to be praised, and not criticized. If you are not Abe Uta, competitors like Pupp and Keldiyorova are not easy wins, and a win over Krasniqi is a big one.

 

7 hours ago, phelps said:

p.s. don't worry for me to be disappointed...I'm used to it...just yesterday it happened multiple times. but I can live with that, it's just "watching some sports on tv", nothing that really matters in actual life. 

It doesn't matter to me. But it was really tiring to read your complaints for eight days straight. There was a Serbian judoka losing in every day of a competition (9/10 with good cadet/junior careers, all of them with decent results on IJF tour), but apparently I have better grasp on reality, so you don't see me complaining after every single loss.

 

7 hours ago, phelps said:

they already changed the interpretation of the rule.

 

to give an automatic shido, now there must be a true grab of the leg, which was not yesterday's case (Pinot is only helping herself in the move with his arm...and it's just that kind of natural move that follows the momentum of the throw that IJF wanted not to be punished anymore).

 

however, yeah, I think we could go ahead for quite a long time debating on that without agreeing.

Can you refer us to some official document about the change? I am looking at the current rulebook (March 23, 2023), and I see no room for interpretation.

 

- For all grabbing below the belt, shido will be given.

- Leg grabbing or grabbing the trousers, will be given shido, each time.

[phelps 6,999]

49 minutes ago, pedja789 said:

Can you refer us to some official document about the change? I am looking at the current rulebook (March 23, 2023), and I see no room for interpretation.

 

- For all grabbing below the belt, shido will be given.

- Leg grabbing or grabbing the trousers, will be given shido, each time.

there's room for interpretation of the whole move, not in case of grabbing a leg/the trousers of an opponent.

 

like you wrote, "grabbing" the leg or the trousers is an automatic shido.

 

which is NOT what happened to Pinot, who only used her arm (actually, her elbow) to give herself a better balance while throwing Niizoe without grabbing any part of her leg/trousers.

 

Ylenia Scapin said during the broadcast on the Italian TV that, outside the automatic case (a true grab), the refs have been given instruction to ignore those instinctive moves during an action unless they feel they give an unfair advantage to the athlete that does that.

 

the ref committee obviously didn't follow those instructions in yesterday's situation.

 

they will always justify themselves saying that Pinot took advantage from moving her arm that way, I completely disagree and nobody will take off my mind that it wasn't a bona fide decision.

 

but it's only my point of view.

 

p.s. I'm sorry if you felt annoyed by my comments through the week.

I'll make sure it won't happen anymore.

from now, I'll keep my thoughts for myself.

[heywoodu 13,614]

On 5/15/2023 at 9:33 PM, phelps said:

there's room for interpretation of the whole move, not in case of grabbing a leg/the trousers of an opponent.

 

like you wrote, "grabbing" the leg or the trousers is an automatic shido.

 

which is NOT what happened to Pinot, who only used her arm (actually, her elbow) to give herself a better balance while throwing Niizoe without grabbing any part of her leg/trousers.

 

Ylenia Scapin said during the broadcast on the Italian TV that, outside the automatic case (a true grab), the refs have been given instruction to ignore those instinctive moves during an action unless they feel they give an unfair advantage to the athlete that does that.

 

the ref committee obviously didn't follow those instructions in yesterday's situation.

 

they will always justify themselves saying that Pinot took advantage from moving her arm that way, I completely disagree and nobody will take off my mind that it wasn't a bona fide decision.

 

but it's only my point of view.

 

p.s. I'm sorry if you felt annoyed by my comments through the week.

I'll make sure it won't happen anymore.

from now, I'll keep my thoughts for myself.

Whereas we still disagree on the Pinot/Niizoe situation, where I think the correct decision was made (opinions I've seen and heard elsewhere as well), I gotta give you credits for the criticism on the Riner/Tasoev situation, which IJF has now issued an official apology for.

 

https://www.ijf.org/news/show/ijf-refereeing-commission-communication