[OFF TOPIC] Politics Thread

[heywoodu 15,135]

14 minutes ago, thepharoah said:

I forgot to mention starving them preventing humanitarian aid , preventing them from getting cured by bombing hospitals , preventing doctors from staying in hospitals by force , forcing very ill people in the intensive care to evacuate from hospitals,  children are dying there in hospitals cuz there's no fuel to generate electricity anymore

Yes, basically everyone agrees those are beyond horrible things. And lots and lots of people agree that Israel is committing war crimes on a large scale. Thinking that everyone in 'the west' is somehow in favour of these things is equally wrong as saying Hamas (which puts their command centers in hospitals, puts large munition storages in apartment buildings and so on) is speaking and acting for all Palestinians, because of course a terrorist group doesn't speak for a whole population of regular people who just want to live their life.

 

I highly doubt a large part of regular Palestinians want Hamas, because Hamas is causing them to die (it's not without reason they were protesting in the streets yelling 'Fuck off Hamas' before 7 October), and so is Israel. Nobody wants the Hamas terrorists on the face of the earth and nobody wants the war crimes Hamas (by setting up centers and munition storages in hospitals and residential buildings and hoarding all the fuel so hospitals can't use it) and Israel (by refusing aid to go there and cutting off water and electricity) are committing. At least not most.

[MHSN 3,619]

13 minutes ago, heywoodu said:

Yes, basically everyone agrees those are beyond horrible things.

You sure ? because I hear complete different things whenever I turn on my TV and watch western leaders speeches. for my own mental health I prefer to stay away from all kind of war related news, it's just hard to watch children suffer like that everyday. but it's also impossible to stay away and call yourself human. 

 

Western countries are always proud of being 100% democratic. I believe that but that also means the guy in charge speak for the entire population of that specific country. (unless you tell me this democracy is a joke which I don't want to believe) so I think you are probably wrong. the majority loves it and probably even orders popcorn to watch this bloodshed everyday on TV. 

 

  

13 minutes ago, heywoodu said:

Yes, basically everyone agrees those are beyond horrible things. And lots and lots of people agree that Israel is committing war crimes on a large scale. Thinking that everyone in 'the west' is somehow in favour of these things is equally wrong as saying Hamas (which puts their command centers in hospitals, puts large munition storages in apartment buildings and so on) is speaking and acting for all Palestinians, because of course a terrorist group doesn't speak for a whole population of regular people who just want to live their life.

 

I highly doubt a large part of regular Palestinians want Hamas, because Hamas is causing them to die (it's not without reason they were protesting in the streets yelling 'Fuck off Hamas' before 7 October), and so is Israel. Nobody wants the Hamas terrorists on the face of the earth and nobody wants the war crimes Hamas (by setting up centers and munition storages in hospitals and residential buildings and hoarding all the fuel so hospitals can't use it) and Israel (by refusing aid to go there and cutting off water and electricity) are committing. At least not most.

 

You speak about the whole thing like Palestinians were living in a Paradise and all of a sudden some of them decided to kill some "Jews" to have fun.

 

their lives were terrible already, they had been treated like animals for so many years. when you treat people like animals, they will react like animals. of course nothing justifies killing children. but they were like some animals out of a 50 years old cage. 

 

I don't like Hamas for my own reasons and that doesn't surprise me if the majority of people in Gaza doesn't support them (or better I should say didn't support them) but Hamas is not the root of the problems
Hamas didn't exist in first place. maybe you should check why it's even created. and there will be another Hamas even if this one completely gets destroyed.

they went to Lebanon and massacred people in 1982 (or let them be massacred by their friends) and another group (far more dangerous) emerged. I can guess the same will happen in Gaza unless the ultimate solution happens (which is only the two states idea)

 

like most places in the world, even in Palestine most people just want to live in peace and have a normal life, but they didn't have a normal life. this current situation can't stay forever. 

 

@thepharoah I seriously suggest you to use this ignore button , I used that on so many so-called users here and that makes your life much easier. that's the only way I could stay in this forum.

[bestmen 2,818]

They were looking to create the new  country in south america first or Uganda ...they picked palestine at the end for the religion reason and because they were peaceful "easy to colonise " , now they call them terrorists 

[Olympian1010 7,972]

17 minutes ago, MHSN said:

You sure ? because I hear complete different things whenever I turn on my TV and watch western leaders speeches. for my own mental health I prefer to stay away from all kind of war related news, it's just hard to watch children suffer like that everyday. but it's also impossible to stay away and call yourself human. 

 

Western countries are always proud of being 100% democratic. I believe that but that also means the guy in charge speak for the entire population of that specific country. (unless you tell me this democracy is a joke which I don't want to believe) so I think you are probably wrong. the majority loves it and probably even orders popcorn to watch this bloodshed everyday on TV. 

There's very much a, "not me, not my problem" attitude in the United States. Even when it comes to mass shootings or other domestic mass casualty incidents. My family and I recently had an argument about this because I think people should care about what happens outside our family/community/state/country. Of course, people can't afford to run around from problem to problem trying to solve them all because they have lives to live too. However, the least we can do is pressure (through peaceful means) elected officials to seek peaceful resolutions and pragmatic solutions to problems people face around the world.

 

There is a not insignificant number of Americans who want a ceasefire. And yes, there are people grandstanding one side or other. This a complex issue, and absolutes won't lead to practical or humane solutions.

 

I certainly don't watch television, popcorn in hand, gleefully enjoying the deaths of civilians. I'd love nothing more than to wake up and read about a realistic peace process that guarantees the civil and human rights of both Palestinians and Israelis.

 

33 minutes ago, MHSN said:

Western countries are always proud of being 100% democratic. I believe that but that also means the guy in charge speak for the entire population of that specific country. (unless you tell me this democracy is a joke which I don't want to believe) so I think you are probably wrong. the majority loves it and probably even orders popcorn to watch this bloodshed everyday on TV. 

I think that is an oversimplification. The real beauty of democracy is that it allows for a plurality of viewpoints. There may be one more supported by the population at a given time, but there is also almost certainly dissidence to that viewpoint as well. A population can look at the affect leaders' policies have had on the nation, and decide to chart a different course. 

 

Democracy doesn't always travel the morally attractive path (there are plenty of examples of that throughout history). However, it does provide to greatest opportunity for a population to make that choice. 

[heywoodu 15,135]

53 minutes ago, MHSN said:

You sure ? because I hear complete different things whenever I turn on my TV and watch western leaders speeches

Yeah, I mean on online forums and such here, a large part of people is not exactly thrilled by their/our own leader's speeches. Yes, there are unfortunately people here who post trash like, and I am quoting them, "just turn the Gaza Strip into a big parking lot" or "now the Palestinians are getting what they wanted". Which luckily a very large majority of people do see as definite trash, but I sadly can't deny it exists.

 

If I'd just try to sort of summarize the overall mood I'm reading online and hearing around (my country specifically, I can't say how it is in other countries), I'd say a majority of people is disgusted by basically everything that has been going on since the morning of 7 October. There are the extremists in one side who yell the 'From the river to the sea' thing and so call for the non-existence of one country (with sadly at least one Dutch political party supporting this), and there are the extremists on the other side who yell the aforementioned disgusting stuff about turning Gaza into a parking lot (with some politicians not literally quoting that, but....yeah, at the very least slightly leaning that way), but overall a majority isn't on either extreme and wants to see - small as the chance may be - that the whole situation gets better. Since it obviously won't be all solved within a day, that will have to start somewhere, and there's a lot of people here who at least want a ceasefire (unlike apparently our politicians) and decent opportunity for all kinds of aid to enter Gaza to somehow try and make some sort of a start.

 

I'm momentarily lost on how the multiquote thing works or how to break a quote, but about what you said about "You speak about the whole thing like Palestinians were living in a Paradise" --> I worded that wrong, because I definitely didn't mean to say Palestinians were living anything better than an already very poor life in inhumane conditions, so my apologies for that.

 

The exact sentiment you describe there about nothing justifying killing innocent people, babies etc, but this very much not coming out of nowhere, is exactly the sentiment I saw a lot online here as well. People being obviously disgusted by the attack at first, but pretty quickly getting angry towards Israel's (and the west's overall) reaction as if they - as a country - were getting attacked by wasps without ever getting anywhere near a nest.....when they basically are the ones who created it and then kept pushing it to a breaking point decade after decade.

 

And on a sidenote: I do hope dialogue between different people from different cultures remains possible about these things. I don't mean between Israel and Palestine directly, but about people like here on a forum. I'll be the first to admit a lot of people in the west, definitely myself included, have no clue about the full extent of the situation, but quite a lot of people are at the very least trying to understand something, even if it's only a tiny bit, and dialogue is a lot better to try and learn something about it than only the one-sided viewpoints in the media of whichever 'side' of the world. 

 

 

Edited November 14, 2023 by heywoodu

[thepharoah 2,405]

50 minutes ago, MHSN said:

You sure ? because I hear complete different things whenever I turn on my TV and watch western leaders speeches. for my own mental health I prefer to stay away from all kind of war related news, it's just hard to watch children suffer like that everyday. but it's also impossible to stay away and call yourself human. 

 

Western countries are always proud of being 100% democratic. I believe that but that also means the guy in charge speak for the entire population of that specific country. (unless you tell me this democracy is a joke which I don't want to believe) so I think you are probably wrong. the majority loves it and probably even orders popcorn to watch this bloodshed everyday on TV. 

 

  

 

You speak about the whole thing like Palestinians were living in a Paradise and all of a sudden some of them decided to kill some "Jews" to have fun.

 

their lives were terrible already, they had been treated like animals for so many years. when you treat people like animals, they will react like animals. of course nothing justifies killing children. but they were like some animals out of a 50 years old cage. 

 

I don't like Hamas for my own reasons and that doesn't surprise me if the majority of people in Gaza doesn't support them (or better I should say didn't support them) but Hamas is not the root of the problems
Hamas didn't exist in first place. maybe you should check why it's even created. and there will be another Hamas even if this one completely gets destroyed.

they went to Lebanon and massacred people in 1982 (or let them be massacred by their friends) and another group (far more dangerous) emerged. I can guess the same will happen in Gaza unless the ultimate solution happens (which is only the two states idea)

 

like most places in the world, even in Palestine most people just want to live in peace and have a normal life, but they didn't have a normal life. this current situation can't stay forever. 

 

@thepharoah I seriously suggest you to use this ignore button , I used that on so many so-called users here and that makes your life much easier. that's the only way I could stay in this forum.

I know my friend , but I don't care about staying in this forum and talk about sport unless I feel that I will talk with some people that respect my feelings respect humanity at least I don't know how anyone could see children slaughtered and still justify killing them I seriously don't understand and these genocides really made me lose my mental health so what about the real ones facing this all day long that lost their family members , children that became with out fathers and mothers and became without legs or hands , I follow sport to try to find a place to escape from all of this but I simply can't 

[thepharoah 2,405]

1 hour ago, heywoodu said:

Yes, basically everyone agrees those are beyond horrible things. And lots and lots of people agree that Israel is committing war crimes on a large scale. Thinking that everyone in 'the west' is somehow in favour of these things is equally wrong as saying Hamas (which puts their command centers in hospitals, puts large munition storages in apartment buildings and so on) is speaking and acting for all Palestinians, because of course a terrorist group doesn't speak for a whole population of regular people who just want to live their life.

 

I highly doubt a large part of regular Palestinians want Hamas, because Hamas is causing them to die (it's not without reason they were protesting in the streets yelling 'Fuck off Hamas' before 7 October), and so is Israel. Nobody wants the Hamas terrorists on the face of the earth and nobody wants the war crimes Hamas (by setting up centers and munition storages in hospitals and residential buildings and hoarding all the fuel so hospitals can't use it) and Israel (by refusing aid to go there and cutting off water and electricity) are committing. At least not most.

What are your proof that Hamas was making hospitals military bases other than Israeli narrative,  cuz they are too funny their president holded a struggle book by Hitler and told people they found it in rumbles and surprisingly it was very clean despite the fact it's supposed owner should have died and turned into pieces or even if someone read a book about Hitler its very convincing way to kill him, I found also a soldier pointing to A very clean board in Rentessi hospital that this is the schedule hamas members done for 7

Oct.7 operations that has their names and I only found week days as he knew that people don't understand Arabic and as long as they hate Muslims they will be convinced of this narrative , the question is why u believe Israel narrative and don't belive Putin narrative in Ukraine they are the same and both stated that they defend their selves but Putin didn't kill kids and women didn't kill civilians like this Zionist regime did , u believed Israeli narrative cuz u hate Muslims but on the other hand u don't hate Ukrainians and that's why u didn't believe Putin narratives see I'm not taking based on assumptions anyway its fine for me I've seen much already at least I'm not taking to Biden or blinken where they talk with a very cold blood about killing civilians and children at least u tri3d to show some respect for people died unlike them 

[bestmen 2,818]

They know how to lie how to manipulate people via media , many things are fake even the flag was stolen from the karaman kingdom 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karamanids

[thepharoah 2,405]

1 hour ago, Olympian1010 said:

There's very much a, "not me, not my problem" attitude in the United States. Even when it comes to mass shootings or other domestic mass casualty incidents. My family and I recently had an argument about this because I think people should care about what happens outside our family/community/state/country. Of course, people can't afford to run around from problem to problem trying to solve them all because they have lives to live too. However, the least we can do is pressure (through peaceful means) elected officials to seek peaceful resolutions and pragmatic solutions to problems people face around the world.

 

There is a not insignificant number of Americans who want a ceasefire. And yes, there are people grandstanding one side or other. This a complex issue, and absolutes won't lead to practical or humane solutions.

 

I certainly don't watch television, popcorn in hand, gleefully enjoying the deaths of civilians. I'd love nothing more than to wake up and read about a realistic peace process that guarantees the civil and human rights of both Palestinians and Israelis.

 

I think that is an oversimplification. The real beauty of democracy is that it allows for a plurality of viewpoints. There may be one more supported by the population at a given time, but there is also almost certainly dissidence to that viewpoint as well. A population can look at the affect leaders' policies have had on the nation, and decide to chart a different course. 

 

Democracy doesn't always travel the morally attractive path (there are plenty of examples of that throughout history). However, it does provide to greatest opportunity for a population to make that choice. 

If I'm American that dont care about what's going on in other parts of the world which many Americans already do for years they even don't know anything outside America even some very famous European capitals , anyway if i was belonging to this group I would have cared about my tax going for a colonizers to kill people by , if I can take the fact its going to Ukraine to defend itself , so Israel will also defend itself from some amateurs in hamas that doesn't make sense so I would have opposed Biden administration really hard anyway I saw some very brave Americans interrupting Biden and blinken and other senators' speech to tell them to cease fire now , I will always remember those Americans raising their bloody hands during blinken speech ,this old lady taking to him with passion about how many children were killed always make me cry , not to mention Jewish voice for peace movement and their passion to ho anywhere and say it loudly free palestine not in our names or people preventing a ship going with weapons to Israel or people sacrificing their jobs and careers to support the right thing those people again returned my humanity after it was killed last days 

Edited November 14, 2023 by thepharoah

[thepharoah 2,405]

Not to mention employees in American US department of state who threatened to quit opposing blinken policy towards what's happening and some of them even quit