Swimming at the Aquatics LEN European Championships 2018

[phelps 7,675]

3 ore fa, OlympicsFan ha scritto:

And a bang average talent like Panziera doing it too, swimming a time that will 99% be enough to win a medal at the next olympics. Whatever the italians are on i hope that the americans, russians, canadian, chinese and so on will get a hand on it too, this italian farce cant be rewarded. Probably even team sky would be embarrassed to cheat that obviously.

 

Panziera is not an average girl...she was expected to this kind of level for years...but she has been underperforming for quite a while for personal reasons...

p.s. for you is it more surprising a technically perfect swim like Panziera's bringing her to world excellence than the so funny and almost illegal swim by Burian getting so close to the Italian? c'mon!

 

the only "amazing" and surprising clocking by an Italian this week is Codia's 50.6...but still, sometimes it happens that you have a perfect race once in your life and get what you never expected before the race (and however, he had a PB of 51.0 and did make the final at the world and european champs -winning medals at the short course europeans, too- already earlier in his career...so, it's not that he improved more than 20 seconds in a year -any referral to Wellbroeck is not unintentional)...

 

p.p.s. of course 2 or 3 Italians having the meet of their life is a farce...

meanwhile teenagers like Milak, Kolesnikov, Chupkov, Chalmers or Freya Anderson coming out of nowhere -not necessarily this year, of course- and almost breaking world records or people like the Americans or Hosszu -not this time for obvious reasons, of course- winning multiple olympic gold medals in the most different disciplines is absolutely normal...

or watching people swimming a sprint race with 2 secs advantage on the rest of the field is also absolutely beyond any suspicion...

c'mon, man!

calm down and let your frustration out of your door...shouting at the bad Italians is not gonna make you live better...

Edited August 9, 2018 by phelps

[OlympicsFan 858]

33 minutes ago, phelps said:

 

Panziera is not an average girl...she was expected to this kind of level for years...but she has been underperforming for quite a while for personal reasons...

p.s. for you is it more surprising a technically perfect swim like Panziera's bringing her to world excellence than the so funny and almost illegal swim by Burian getting so close to the Italian? c'mon!

 

the only "amazing" and surprising clocking by an Italian this week is Codia's 50.6...but still, sometimes it happens that you have a perfect race once in your life and get what you never expected before the race (and however, he had a PB of 51.0 and did make the final at the world and european champs -winning medals at the short course europeans, too- already earlier in his career...so, it's not that he improved more than 20 seconds in a year -any referral to Wellbroeck is not unintentional)...

 

p.p.s. of course 2 or 3 Italians having the meet of their life is a farce...

meanwhile teenagers like Milak, Kolesnikov, Chupkov, Chalmers or Freya Anderson coming out of nowhere -not necessarily this year, of course- and almost breaking world records or people like the Americans or Hosszu -not this time for obvious reasons, of course- winning multiple olympic gold medals in the most different sdisciplines is absolutely normal...

or watching people swimming a sprint race with 2 secs advantage on the rest of the field is also absolutely beyond any suspicion...

c'mon, man!

calm down and let your frustration out of your door...shouting at the bad Italians is not gonna make you live better...

 

Here are a few points:

- Where did i say that all those other athletes i mentioned are not suspicious?

- Kids like those you mentioned improving is not nearly as suspicious as those improvements by athletes in their mid/late 20s like Codia or Panziera.

- How fast was Codia before last year?

- Codias improvement this year is much bigger than that of Anderson, so maybe get your facts right first.

- Wellbrock didnt improve by 20 s this year, so again, try to get your facts right (in addition to that you cant even spell his name correctly ...)

- I know that you will find a reason (that makes sense to you) to make it look like something normal whenever an italian athlete is showing massive improvements, nothing new. Just call everyone a talent and if they explode than noone is supposed to get suspicious ...

- 2-3 italians having the meet of their life? Vergani + Quadarella + Panziera + Codia + Cusinato + Miressi + Zofkova + Pizzini + Restivo + Megli = 2-3?

 

If you really want to have a discussion about this, then you could maybe tell me when the last time was that a nation had so many swimmers (such a high percentage) improve their PB at a major competition? I think the list of italians not improving any PB this week is shorter than the list of italians improving their PB.

 

To me this looks like 2000 all over again and i dont think i have to give you a history lesson about all the stories during that time. When i noticed the italian development in track cycling (especially on the womens side) and to some extent in athletics (Tortu) i was already suspicious, but now i am convinced.

 

[phelps 7,675]

Vergani = his first season as a professional...and apparently he's a great sprinter (but he still can't swim more than 50m yet)...

Quadarella = our best young and improving talent...former junior european medallist widening her range of events (but all reasonbly close one to the other)...

Panziera = actually she's 22, so she's quite young for the typical Italian standard (and I also explained what has always been the opinion and the expectations of our coaching staff about her)...

Codia = his PB in the 100m fly was 52.67 in 2012 and then he improved slightly every year since 2014: 52.40, 51.69, 51.42, 51.09...and then today's new IR (which I already wrote is definitely unexpected)...

Cusinato + Miressi = they are just 19, coming out of a successful junior career (and their improvement in terms of clockings is not that impressive, tbh)...

Zofkova = you should read the story of her life to know why she wasn't as good in the past (but still, I can also admit that she's another "amazing" performer, so to say)...p.s. in any case, she was always around the 60 secs "high" in the last few years...not that she came down from 1.03 or so...

Pizzini = he was a talented and successful junior, then he had 2/3 years where he lost interest in high level swimming...then he got back and won the bronze medal already 2 yars ago...he's always been consistent between 2.09 and 2.10 for 3/4 seasons...so, swimming 2.08.5 after being healty and in good shape for a full year is not that crazy, I guess...

Restivo = he' studying as a medicine doctor...he had a surprising Italian record last year (but then he failed at the world champs)...still, his time is improved by just a few hundreds in the last 24 months...

Megli = he's been swimming the same clockings (1.47 low, 1.46 high) for years (and he's still reasonably young)...he's only had a one-hit wonder in an internal leg of a relay...how can you name this "a meet of his life"?

 

p.s. we have a 44-people team in Glasgow...and no more than 15 guys (including a bunch of teenagers at their 1st or 2nd global event) improved their PB...

 

p.p.s. I repeat...there's no strange system behind our improvement, just good work (and a very modest past, which makes this new life of Italian swimming more surprising to the eyes of the people who don't know exactly how things used to be here until a few years ago)...

 

p.p.p.s. Wellbrock's best was 14.55 before this year...

 

p.p.p.p.s. what did I write about Van Rouwendaal that's not fair to her?

 

p.p.p.p.p.s. not gonna answer about women's track cycling and Tortu...ot's obvious that you don't know anything about Italian sports history, troubles, development...more in general, it's clear that you don't know anything about Italy...

once again...keep your frustration out of your home...you're gonna benefit of that by soooo much...

Edited August 9, 2018 by phelps

[AlFHg 330]

1 hour ago, OlympicsFan said:

 

Here are a few points:

- Where did i say that all those other athletes i mentioned are not suspicious?

- Kids like those you mentioned improving is not nearly as suspicious as those improvements by athletes in their mid/late 20s like Codia or Panziera.

- How fast was Codia before last year?

- Codias improvement this year is much bigger than that of Anderson, so maybe get your facts right first.

- Wellbrock didnt improve by 20 s this year, so again, try to get your facts right (in addition to that you cant even spell his name correctly ...)

- I know that you will find a reason (that makes sense to you) to make it look like something normal whenever an italian athlete is showing massive improvements, nothing new. Just call everyone a talent and if they explode than noone is supposed to get suspicious ...

- 2-3 italians having the meet of their life? Vergani + Quadarella + Panziera + Codia + Cusinato + Miressi + Zofkova + Pizzini + Restivo + Megli = 2-3?

 

If you really want to have a discussion about this, then you could maybe tell me when the last time was that a nation had so many swimmers (such a high percentage) improve their PB at a major competition? I think the list of italians not improving any PB this week is shorter than the list of italians improving their PB.

 

To me this looks like 2000 all over again and i dont think i have to give you a history lesson about all the stories during that time. When i noticed the italian development in track cycling (especially on the womens side) and to some extent in athletics (Tortu) i was already suspicious, but now i am convinced.

 

As regards track cycling and swimming, finally the italian federation are making investments in the structures and most of the athletes are now able to train also abroad. In athletics we are so strong that we are dominating the medal table.

The answer is simple: as a teenager undergoes growth and development, its "feelings" (meant as adaptation to technique and physical stress) becomes different and requires time to calibrate, while this is not true for people in the mid 20s, as Panziera and Codia. As regards all the other swimmers you said, Quadarella, Vergani, Cusinato, Miressi and Zofkova did very well in Budapest and in the short course european championship, this is just a confirmation. As regards the other, honestly I don't know very much about them in terms of their history and their previous best, so I'm not saying anything. 

I don't know about Wellbrock or how it is written (by the way, is there a law in Germany that denies apostrophes in English words?), but how it is possible that a "kid" is now competing with the best in the world? (I'll answer for you: it is exactly what I told before regarding the others).

In the end, as regards the Italian to be considered as talent: Italian young athletes are among the best in the world, but our system doesn't really help who wants to be an athlete and then keep on doing other things.  

 

PS: were you as suspicious as you now are with, for example, Laura Dahlmeier?

[OlympicsFan 858]

11 hours ago, phelps said:

Vergani = his first season as a professional...and apparently he's a great sprinter (but he still can't swim more than 50m yet)...

Quadarella = our best young and improving talent...former junior european medallist widening her range of events (but all reasonbly close one to the other)...

Panziera = actually she's 22, so she's quite young for the typical Italian standard (and I also explained what has always been the opinion and the expectations of our coaching staff about her)...

Codia = his PB in the 100m fly was 52.67 in 2012 and then he improved slightly every year since 2014: 52.40, 51.69, 51.42, 51.09...and then today's new IR (which I already wrote is definitely unexpected)...

Cusinato + Miressi = they are just 19, coming out of a successful junior career (and their improvement in terms of clockings is not that impressive, tbh)...

Zofkova = you should read the story of her life to know why she wasn't as good in the past (but still, I can also admit that she's another "amazing" performer, so to say)...p.s. in any case, she was always around the 60 secs "high" in the last few years...not that she came down from 1.03 or so...

Pizzini = he was a talented and successful junior, then he had 2/3 years where he lost interest in high level swimming...then he got back and won the bronze medal already 2 yars ago...he's always been consistent between 2.09 and 2.10 for 3/4 seasons...so, swimming 2.08.5 after being healty and in good shape for a full year is not that crazy, I guess...

Restivo = he' studying as a medicine doctor...he had a surprising Italian record last year (but then he failed at the world champs)...still, his time is improved by just a few hundreds in the last 24 months...

Megli = he's been swimming the same clockings (1.47 low, 1.46 high) for years (and he's still reasonably young)...he's only had a one-hit wonder in an internal leg of a relay...how can you name this "a meet of his life"?

 

p.s. we have a 44-people team in Glasgow...and no more than 15 guys (including a bunch of teenagers at their 1st or 2nd global event) improved their PB...

 

p.p.s. I repeat...there's no strange system behind our improvement, just good work (and a very modest past, which makes this new life of Italian swimming more surprising to the eyes of the people who don't know exactly how things used to be here until a few years ago)...

 

p.p.p.s. Wellbrock's best was 14.55 before this year...

 

p.p.p.p.s. what did I write about Van Rouwendaal that's not fair to her?

 

p.p.p.p.p.s. not gonna answer about women's track cycling and Tortu...ot's obvious that you don't know anything about Italian sports history, troubles, development...more in general, it's clear that you don't know anything about Italy...

once again...keep your frustration out of your home...you're gonna benefit of that by soooo much...

Like i said, you will find a reason to make all of those improvements seem reasonable to yourself and its for sure a coincidence that all happened at the same meet.

14:55 - 14:36 = 20? No, i could write something about how bad italian schools must be, but thats more your style. Like i said before you trying to act like someone who is above things here is just beyond ridiculous, barely hours after calling Van Rouwendaal a superwoman who completely miraculously was able to recover from yesterdays race, something that the poor italian girls couldnt never do (everyone knows what you tried to imply there ...). Its just sad that you are completely unable to reflect properly about italian performances, only questioning other countries, but of course everyone who frequently reads your comments knows that this is something new. I hope by now you were able to calm down after completely flipping out after every dutch win in the open water events. I asked you a clear question and you didnt even try to answer it, nothing you said even remotely explains in any way why so many italian swimmers massively improved at the same time. Your answer basically was "They improved because they trained", which of course in no way explains anything and what is exactly what every russian or chinese swimming fan would say. All the signs clearly point in a very worrying direction and it makes me sad that Italy learned absolutely nothing from its past.

[OlympicsFan 858]

Not what the italian freak show is over, lets look at how the times from this week compare to the Pan Pacs times:

If you only count the medal winning times at both meets and give 6 points to the fastest winning time and 1 point to the slowest time for 3rd place, you get 93 points for the european championship times and 96 points for the pan pac times in the events contested so far, which is quite astonishing.

In mens 1500 free and mens 100 breast all top 3 times at the european championships were faster than the winning times in the same events at the pan pacs, it wasnt the other way around in any event. The weakest events from a european perspective were womens 800 free, womens 200 free, mens 200 free and the mixed medley relay. On the mens side the winning times at the european championships were faster than the winning times at the pan pacs in all events except for the 400 IM. On the womens side none of the winning times at the european championships were faster than the winning times at the pan pacs.

Overall the medal winning times at the european championships were better in mens 1500 free, mens 100 breast and womens 400 IM. In mens 400 IM, womens 200 free, womens 800 free and the mixed medley relay the medal winning times at the pan pacs were better overall.

Edited August 10, 2018 by OlympicsFan

[Giovanni Gianni Cattaneo 142]

Panziera, quadarella, Miressi anche Cusinaro are expected.

Only surrpise is Codia. But Piero, you know, has many psicologica problems. Emotional crisis, panic attacks hai forbidden him to reach good results. Yesterday had better conditions ad possibile. Eight course, nothing to lose. No pressure. And he win.

[Dunadan 1,103]

Italy at the swimming European Championships (not including open water):

- 2018: 22 medals, 6 gold, 2 x CR

- 2016: 17 medals, 5 gold, 3 x CR, 1 ER

- 2014: 15 medals, 5 gold, 3 x CR, 2 x ER

- 2012: 18 medals, 6 gold (and there were no mixed relays).

A nice improvement, but I don't see any huge outlier.

 

off topic

Spoiler

For people saying that the Italian women's track cycling development is suspicious, I suggest you to follow some junior competitions, these are girls who dominated for years with huge performances. I bet that in the next few years OlympicsFan will complain a lot about Italian gymnastics 

 

 

Edited August 10, 2018 by Dunadan

[phelps 7,675]

10 hours ago, OlympicsFan said:

Like i said, you will find a reason to make all of those improvements seem reasonable to yourself and its for sure a coincidence that all happened at the same meet.

14:55 - 14:36 = 20? No, i could write something about how bad italian schools must be, but thats more your style. Like i said before you trying to act like someone who is above things here is just beyond ridiculous, barely hours after calling Van Rouwendaal a superwoman who completely miraculously was able to recover from yesterdays race, something that the poor italian girls couldnt never do (everyone knows what you tried to imply there ...). Its just sad that you are completely unable to reflect properly about italian performances, only questioning other countries, but of course everyone who frequently reads your comments knows that this is something new. I hope by now you were able to calm down after completely flipping out after every dutch win in the open water events. I asked you a clear question and you didnt even try to answer it, nothing you said even remotely explains in any way why so many italian swimmers massively improved at the same time. Your answer basically was "They improved because they trained", which of course in no way explains anything and what is exactly what every russian or chinese swimming fan would say. All the signs clearly point in a very worrying direction and it makes me sad that Italy learned absolutely nothing from its past.

 

14.55 - 14.36 = 19...sorry for not being so precise to count also the hundreds of a second...c'mon! be serious...

 

about my thoughts on Van Rouwendaal...you're just writing false things...so, once again you're totally off target...

and p.s. I repeat you should learn what sense of humor is (and try to use a big amount of that in your life, before you get mad for nothing)...if you don't understand the joke that was running between me and @heywoodu on the Dutch great success in the European Championships overall, then don't try to be part of that same joke...

 

well, at this point our "virtual" relationship on this forum is over right now...

[heywoodu 15,141]

1 hour ago, phelps said:

 

 

well, at this point our "virtual" relationship on this forum is over right now...