Boxing at the European Games 2023

[ChandlerMne 1,037]

9 minutes ago, phelps said:

hope you're just trying to provoke here

Not at all. Never done that, never will.

9 minutes ago, phelps said:

don't have to show anymore that I can take any Italian loss (even the most bitter and upsetting) when it's deserved

You dont, at least not for me. Your remarks were rather emotional and subjective. As a fan, i can say that Sorrentino won by a narrow margin, i am not calling refs in this case corrupted, just because i dont like the outcome. You had much clearer cases of corruption than those two particular bouts. Look my comment about Tiafack match. I saw 10+ matches today...majority were dubious. 

 

10 minutes ago, phelps said:

but most refs and judges in Olympic boxing are proven corrupted people and I won't stop pointing my fingers to the most obscure episodes.

Was talking about that here on T exactly 11 years ago. 

 

11 minutes ago, phelps said:

s. in this tournament there have been 2 bouts that might be named as "steal" in favor of Italian fighters (Malanga's 1st round and Gemini's match yesterday vs  and if you read my posts I recognized immediately that we've been gifted those wins).

meanwhile many other losses have been perfectly in order and I didn't write anything against that.

the same, the only true steal against is today's QF between Chaarabi and   in the women's -54kg, meanwhile the 2 shameful episodes I mostly insisted on actually are referred to matches that the Italian fighters still won despite that. it's all in this thread.

If you read my other comments, you would see that my approach to boxing is that majority of refs are ignorant, probably dont know rules, even corrupted but probably not biased against any particular nation. 

I am objective, or at least trying to be.

Giorga was better, and thats it.

 

 

 

[ChandlerMne 1,037]

14 minutes ago, phelps said:

2 judges from  and  in a match  vs  (where the Italian girl has well known Tunesian heritage)

just that choice says a lot...

Yeas, that was brutal.

Dont know who select them. Where are refs from France, Germany, Italy, Spain?

Instead we have refs from Kirgystan. 

[mpjmcevoy 362]

2 hours ago, ChandlerMne said:

Not at all. Never done that, never will.

You dont, at least not for me. Your remarks were rather emotional and subjective. As a fan, i can say that Sorrentino won by a narrow margin, i am not calling refs in this case corrupted, just because i dont like the outcome. You had much clearer cases of corruption than those two particular bouts. Look my comment about Tiafack match. I saw 10+ matches today...majority were dubious. 

 

Was talking about that here on T exactly 11 years ago. 

 

If you read my other comments, you would see that my approach to boxing is that majority of refs are ignorant, probably dont know rules, even corrupted but probably not biased against any particular nation. 

I am objective, or at least trying to be.

Giorga was better, and thats it.

 

 

 

I never entirely understood - well, I knew it was a corruption thing, but you know - why, when boxing with its buzzer system had found the beginnings of a way to counter these things, actively dumped it for subjective, corruptable judging. Taekwondo used to be riddled; they've managed to sort of sort it out. Gymnastics was renounded for homers; the code of ponts seems to have levelled the playing field a bit. Yet boxing actively chose the worse option...

[ChandlerMne 1,037]

1 hour ago, mpjmcevoy said:

I never entirely understood - well, I knew it was a corruption thing, but you know - why, when boxing with its buzzer system had found the beginnings of a way to counter these things, actively dumped it for subjective, corruptable judging. Taekwondo used to be riddled; they've managed to sort of sort it out. Gymnastics was renounded for homers; the code of ponts seems to have levelled the playing field a bit. Yet boxing actively chose the worse option...

Yeah, they just wont learn...

Whole punching system in boxing doesnt allow some technollogical benefits but could be doable to some extent.

Plus, refs should be more proffesional. From most developed boxing nations.

Maybe even some former boxers as well.

This situation is unbearable. Changes are inevitable.

[mpjmcevoy 362]

3 minutes ago, ChandlerMne said:

Yeah, they just wont learn...

Whole punching system in boxing doesnt allow some technollogical benefits but could be doable to some extent.

Plus, refs should be more proffesional. From most developed boxing nations.

Maybe even some former boxers as well.

This situation is unbearable. Changes are inevitable.

As I heard it, the powers that be were actually genuinely lobbied by certain people COMPLAINING that objective buzzer mechanisms were taking away their 'power' and 'influence' - and actually CAVED to that demand because it helped when securing event hosts and fees if home boxers could expect some favours! Anecdotal, but where do you even start if there's truth in that?

[mpjmcevoy 362]

On 6/27/2023 at 8:33 PM, Vektor said:

If someone would have said to me that will have the same number of quota chances here as , I would have been very concerned about their mental health.

GBR have, quietly, had a pretty dreadful qualification tournament given their pedigree. I still think they'll do quite well in the final qualification tournament. Ireland's men have not dazzled, though their women have, as have Turkey's. There's been an amazing spread of the men's spots, but the women's spots have gone in the main to the same handful of countries.

[Olympian1010 7,971]

3 hours ago, mpjmcevoy said:

Taekwondo used to be riddled; they've managed to sort of sort it out.

Taekwondo should really be a roadmap for other federations. They created objective scoring criteria, embraced technology, instituted a great video replay rule, became a leader in international outreach, and created highly entertaining product at end of the day. I consistently look forward to watching taekwondo at every multi-sport games.

[Olympian1010 7,971]

Boxing’s problem is the lack of objective scoring criteria. Fencing, taekwondo, judo, karate, etc. are all miles ahead in that space. Referees and judges can look at a situation and award points for a specific action, instead of an overall impression. While there might be debates about what should score/not score, how many points a move should be worth, etc., objective scoring systems add a lot of legitimacy and structure to bouts. 

[mpjmcevoy 362]

28 minutes ago, Olympian1010 said:

Boxing’s problem is the lack of objective scoring criteria. Fencing, taekwondo, judo, karate, etc. are all miles ahead in that space. Referees and judges can look at a situation and award points for a specific action, instead of an overall impression. While there might be debates about what should score/not score, how many points a move should be worth, etc., objective scoring systems add a lot of legitimacy and structure to bouts. 

You could put together a simple enough system - connecting punch (jab basically) 1pt, connecting combination (double jab, 'soft' 1-2) 2pt, CP with power (hook, unprotected jab, uppercut) 3 pts, CC with power four points(classic forceful combo).

 

5 judges, 4 buttons each, an attack scores the highest value 3 of the judges agree on instantaneously -so if the 5 judges split with 2 claiming a combo, no force, 1 thinks 1 punch had force but not combo, and 2 thought it was a combo with force - that's 2pt, 2pt, 3 pt, 4pt 4pt - which means three judges gave at least three points - so 3 points scored. If a mandatory 8 count grants oddly enough 8pts, snf of vourse a KO/TKO ends the contest immediately, there's your system. Score cumulatively, or over three round by round scores (I prefer cumulative, round by round leads to a lot of dead rubber thirds rounds). Obviously punches defended with arms and gloves aren't going to score at all, so in effect sound defence is well rewarded. Eventually you could look at similar pressure sensors in the gloves as TKD has, but that's not a necessity right now.

 

If you think successfuly inflicted power should be better rewarded, make those numbers 4 and 6, and a standing count 10 rather than 3 and 4. If you think pure technique more important put everything up one to 2,3,4,5, as this will make a successful jap worth 40% a hard combo, rather than 25%. Fiddle and trial until you are happy

 

Remember TKD fiddled with its scoring a lot to start with, introduced rounds, incentivised and then disincentivised roundhouse kicks - there's no harm in messing with the rules a bit - the key, maybe, is to get away from the assumption that Olympic boxing is just a training ground for the prize fighting pros of the future, so should basically look like prizefighting. That' need not be true..

Edited June 29, 2023 by mpjmcevoy

[Vektor 3,326]

Boxing had a "clean punch" scoring system between Barcelona and London, and as far as I can remember it still had controversies. 

 

The issue is that you simply can't measure the force of punches, you obviously can't put force detectors on their bodies or in their gloves. Or maybe you can put them into the gloves? Lol, I have no idea if that's plausible.