[OFF TOPIC] General Chat

[Grassmarket 4,300]

“Looks like I’ve picked a bad week to quit drinking:

 

[konig 1,592]

a question for all: did the wokeism ruins the olympism somehow?

[Olympian1010 8,299]

I can already predict how this discussion will go 

[NearPup 4,180]

49 minutes ago, konig said:

a question for all: did the wokeism ruins the olympism somehow?

This conversation would be greatly helped if there was an agreed upon definition to what being "woke" is.

[konig 1,592]

58 minutes ago, NearPup said:

This conversation would be greatly helped if there was an agreed upon definition to what being "woke" is.

Im sure you know what is the pointing but ok, i found a definition:  aware of and actively attentive to important societal facts and issues (especially issues of racial and social justice)

 

Dont worry @Olympian1010, is only about olympism and no more than that, for me this ideology bring some problems:

 

1) Transgenders in females sport 

 

2) Equal gender: originaly nothing bad but destroys males categories like the C2 in canoeing slalom

 

3) For a single action that happen in Tokyo, the modern pentathlon wont have equestrian anymore.

 

There are a few i can remember but can be more, i read you.

[Olympian1010 8,299]

7 minutes ago, konig said:

1) Transgenders in females sport 

To be honest, I'm still forming an opinion on this topic, but my current position would probably be: We shouldn't discount the biological advantages transgender athletes may gain, though those advantanges despartely needed to be studied more throughly so that we have a more comphensive understanding of the biological data. We could then use that understanding to formulate more comprehensive and informed policies. I also think it's important not to close off sport to people. If policies need to be put in place at the elite level to ensure fairness that is one thing, but restricting participation or singling-out trandgender athletes in general does not really vibe with the global mission of sport in my opinion.

 

15 minutes ago, konig said:

2) Equal gender: originaly nothing bad but destroys males categories like the C2 in canoeing slalom

Like I said the recent discussion on gender equality/equity, I don't think the policy itself is an issue. It was badly needed at the Olympic level in my opinion. The implementation was certainly less than ideal though. I don't think the IOC needed to cut events and quotas on the men's side to reach their policy goals. It's a shame that some fans now see increased opportunites for female athletes as a detriment to male athletes 

 

20 minutes ago, konig said:

3) For a single action that happen in Tokyo, the modern pentathlon wont have equestrian anymore.

Honestly, there were already mounting problems for modern pentathlon before the Tokyo 2020 scandal, in my opinion. The level of equestrian was already rather low according to some commentators. There wasn't a great degree of universality. The sport was/is a bit of logisical challenge. Plus, fencing/equestrain certainly don't have the relevance to military training they once did, so the sport felt outdated to some (along with it's obvious connection to military culture). 

 

I don't think the animal cruelty scandal did it any favors, obviously.

[NearPup 4,180]

3 hours ago, konig said:

Im sure you know what is the pointing but ok, i found a definition:  aware of and actively attentive to important societal facts and issues (especially issues of racial and social justice)

 

Dont worry @Olympian1010, is only about olympism and no more than that, for me this ideology bring some problems:

 

1) Transgenders in females sport 

 

2) Equal gender: originaly nothing bad but destroys males categories like the C2 in canoeing slalom

 

3) For a single action that happen in Tokyo, the modern pentathlon wont have equestrian anymore.

 

There are a few i can remember but can be more, i read you.

I mean, if we are going by the definition you quoted you’d basically have to be either ignorant or a psychopath to not be “woke”. So that seems like a bad definition to me, because I know a lot of people who would not self describe as “woke” but who also are definitively aware and attentive to “important societal facts and issues”.

 

Anyway:

 

1. difficult question where the right answer will likely vary based on context. It’s a very difficult debate to follow because there is so much bad faith, ignorance and talking past people on both sides.

 

2. The death of the slalom C-2 has a lot more to do with the ICF not giving a shit about that event than it does with the IOC.

Besides, you had to be stupid to not know the Olympics where heading in that direction eventually by the mid 90s at the *latest*. The people who were in power in the ICF and in various NFs that didn’t develop women’s canoeing way more aggressively are to blame. The summer sports that developed gender parity by the early 2000s didn’t suffer at all from the push for gender equality, it’s entirely the sports that dragged their feet that felt the squeeze. So my sympathies are pretty limited.

(That and the IOC’s super strict insistence on the rest of Agenda 2020 was a big factor too)

 

3. Modern Pentathlon shouldn’t be in the Olympics at all anyway, and it’s baffling that the IOC didn’t take this opportunity to get rid of it.

 

As someone who enjoys watching show jumping the level of riding in modern pentathlon is just painful. It was something that was only watchable with a “so bad it’s good” mindset.

Edited March 3, 2024 by NearPup

[konig 1,592]

17 hours ago, Olympian1010 said:

To be honest, I'm still forming an opinion on this topic, but my current position would probably be: We shouldn't discount the biological advantages transgender athletes may gain, though those advantanges despartely needed to be studied more throughly so that we have a more comphensive understanding of the biological data. We could then use that understanding to formulate more comprehensive and informed policies. I also think it's important not to close off sport to people. If policies need to be put in place at the elite level to ensure fairness that is one thing, but restricting participation or singling-out trandgender athletes in general does not really vibe with the global mission of sport in my opinion.

 

Like I said the recent discussion on gender equality/equity, I don't think the policy itself is an issue. It was badly needed at the Olympic level in my opinion. The implementation was certainly less than ideal though. I don't think the IOC needed to cut events and quotas on the men's side to reach their policy goals. It's a shame that some fans now see increased opportunites for female athletes as a detriment to male athletes 

 

Honestly, there were already mounting problems for modern pentathlon before the Tokyo 2020 scandal, in my opinion. The level of equestrian was already rather low according to some commentators. There wasn't a great degree of universality. The sport was/is a bit of logisical challenge. Plus, fencing/equestrain certainly don't have the relevance to military training they once did, so the sport felt outdated to some (along with it's obvious connection to military culture). 

 

I don't think the animal cruelty scandal did it any favors, obviously.

1) We agree in your second part: is not my intention to ban the trangenders from practise sports, for me or they have their own categhory or they compite in male categories.

 

2) Totally agree with you.

 

3) You are pointing out facts that i cant say are not like you say but: the solution is ban the equestrian?, when a Hospital are not having a good performance, the solution is closing the Hospital?, or the solution attack the problem  to improve the performance?

 

You are too worried for this topic unnecessarily 

[Olympian1010 8,299]

5 minutes ago, konig said:

3) You are pointing out facts that i cant say are not like you say but: the solution is ban the equestrian?, when a Hospital are not having a good performance, the solution is closing the Hospital?, or the solution attack the problem  to improve the performance?

Honestly, I don't remember there being a huge push from within the sport to improve the standard/format of equestrain until it was clear the IOC wanted the discipline out of the sport. Maybe there were some efforts I can't remember (I didn't really follow international sports in-depth until 2017/2018), so perhaps someone can speak more on the topic.

[NearPup 4,180]

1 hour ago, konig said:

1) We agree in your second part: is not my intention to ban the trangenders from practise sports, for me or they have their own categhory or they compite in male categories.

 

2) Totally agree with you.

 

3) You are pointing out facts that i cant say are not like you say but: the solution is ban the equestrian?, when a Hospital are not having a good performance, the solution is closing the Hospital?, or the solution attack the problem  to improve the performance?

 

You are too worried for this topic unnecessarily 

I personally think the obvious solution was to remove modern pentathlon from the Olympics and to let it fail or succeed on it’s own.