Doping Cases and Bans 2019 Thread

[LowerSaxony 205]

  On 12/9/2019 at 12:58 PM, Monzanator said:

 

Is Kenya a state-sponsored doping too? Or because the country is poor their form of doping support doesn't count as statewide? I'm well aware the Westerners like you would only like to talk about DDR & Soviet Union (Russia) but it's not going to work, my friend.

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I think everybody's well aware about the doping problem in Kenya. It is questionable whether it its state-sponsored (authorities help athletes to get their drugs) or if they just look away, but whatever. The point is that there is simply not that clear evidence about a systematical doping as we have in the Russian case. Should we wait with punishment for a proven state-sponsored doping fraud until we have checked all other countries? If two burglars rob a bank and we have evidence for only one of them - should both be released just because it would be unfair to the burglar in prison?

And moreover, I really don't see why you make an East-Western thing of it. There is no country in the world which has a better network in world sports than Russia. You really think they let Kenya go on purpose while they punish Russia? That's hilarious in my eyes.

[nenad 447]

  On 12/9/2019 at 1:10 PM, LowerSaxony said:

 

I think everybody's well aware about the doping problem in Kenya. It is questionable whether it its state-sponsored (authorities help athletes to get their drugs) or if they just look away, but whatever. The point is that there is simply not that clear evidence about a systematical doping as we have in the Russian case. Should we wait with punishment for a proven state-sponsored doping fraud until we have checked all other countries? If two burglars rob a bank and we have evidence for only one of them - should both be released just because it would be unfair to the burglar in prison?

And moreover, I really don't see why you make an East-Western thing of it. There is no country in the world which has a better network in world sports than Russia. You really think they let Kenya go on purpose while they punish Russia? That's hilarious in my eyes.

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Because it's political and everybody knows it. 

[Monzanator 4,611]

  On 12/9/2019 at 1:01 PM, De_Gambassi said:

 

They don't have a state sponsored doping system, more a dont give fuck doping system, which is not exactly the same thing.

 

PS: can you please stop your "westerner" crap. it's getting ridiculous.

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Good try but neah... Your collonialist rule is over, my friend. France no longer dictates who should speak what in this world.

[Monzanator 4,611]

  On 12/9/2019 at 1:10 PM, LowerSaxony said:

 

I think everybody's well aware about the doping problem in Kenya. It is questionable whether it its state-sponsored (authorities help athletes to get their drugs) or if they just look away, but whatever. The point is that there is simply not that clear evidence about a systematical doping as we have in the Russian case. Should we wait with punishment for a proven state-sponsored doping fraud until we have checked all other countries? If two burglars rob a bank and we have evidence for only one of them - should both be released just because it would be unfair to the burglar in prison?

And moreover, I really don't see why you make an East-Western thing of it. There is no country in the world which has a better network in world sports than Russia. You really think they let Kenya go on purpose while they punish Russia? That's hilarious in my eyes.

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You are very naive. How much money & effort ARD put into uncovering the Russian doping case? I'd say quite a lot. How much effort does ARD or anyone else put into the Kenyan case? I'd say much less. Yeah, it's better to look away and pretend Russia is the only evil of this world

[dcro 10,210]

So punishing proven cheaters is now a political decision? While letting them go scot-free would be fair and NOT political?

 

Always the same boring narrative. "Russians should not be punished for their proven fraudulent cover-up of a fraud (...) because, get this, there are maybe probably more cheaters out there."

 

This would be just dandy in real life. "Your Honor, even though there is undeniable evidence, I believe my client should get away with murder, since there are surely murderers out there who never went to jail."

[dcro 10,210]

And don't even start with Kenya and Ethiopia. Whatever they may be doing, they did NOT host Olympics and essentially made a mockery from them.

 

It's like comparing a street mugger with corrupted CEO.

[LowerSaxony 205]

  On 12/9/2019 at 1:20 PM, Monzanator said:

 

You are very naive. How much money & effort ARD put into uncovering the Russian doping case? I'd say quite a lot. How much effort does ARD or anyone else put into the Kenyan case? I'd say much less. Yeah, it's better to look away and pretend Russia is the only evil of this world

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Well, nearly everything we now about the Kenyan problem is BECAUSE ARD investigates. Hajo Seppelt, the main driver behind the ARD investigations, always points out the big problem in Kenya  - why should ARD do all that effort when "they" (the entire Western world which is best connected onto all TV stations, ofc) want to let Kenya get away?

 

But let the entire Kenyan case aside for a moment: We have a proven case of state-sponsored doping in Russia. What should the world of sports do with it? You didn't answered my question with your last comment. It's easy to call that case just "political" (the Serbian user did it, not you)... but it does not answer the question what to do with proven fraud!

 

Edit: Nobody said that Russia is the only evil in the world. But considering from the perspective of sports, the Russian authorities ARE evil - and this needs to be punished, no matter who else is evil too

Edited December 9, 2019 by LowerSaxony

[heywoodu 15,355]

  On 12/9/2019 at 1:29 PM, LowerSaxony said:

 

Well, nearly everything we now about the Kenyan problem is BECAUSE ARD investigates. Hajo Seppelt, the main driver behind the ARD investigations, always points out the big problem in Kenya  - why should ARD do all that effort when "they" (the entire Western world which is best connected onto all TV stations, ofc) want to let Kenya get away?

 

But let the entire Kenyan case aside for a moment: We have a proven case of state-sponsored doping in Russia. What should the world of sports do with it? You didn't answered my question with your last comment. It's easy to call that case just "political" (the Serbian user did it, not you)... but it does not answer the question what to with proven fraud!

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And, on top of that, an attempted cover-up of said fraud with more proven fraud.

[De_Gambassi 1,225]

  On 12/9/2019 at 1:09 PM, phelps said:

 

Kenian and Ethiopian system are exactly State-managed doping...

 

don't look at the Italian and Spanish coaches/managers and doctors operating for their athletes...in those Nations nothing happens unless their sport minister/authorities allow that to happen...

 

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I highly doubt that's the case... But even so, that would be more a case of corruption.

 

  Citation

and also situations like NOP or BALCO, even if technically are just private right institutions that put them on, they were/are acting exactly as a National doping system for the Countries benefitting for that sh*t...

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They really dont, you may remember that NOP was tore down thanks to american anti doping efforts...

 

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Anyway, contrary to you, I believe this sanction is a new dawn for the fight against doping. I for one think that anti doping policies have so far miserably failed. There are many reasons for that, but one that seems primordial to me is that you can't expect bodies (national federations and NOC) that have, a priori, zero direct interests in fighting against doping to do so. Sure, you may find some good guys who will be willing thanks to some sort of morality or health concerns. But, don't count on them to be a majority...

 

Bottom line, you have to assure these bodies have a personal interest in trying to fight against doping. Having collective sanctions, excluding whole sports or even whole nations from the Olympics is a great tool to achieve just that.

 

For instance, I believe that every olympic sport should have a policy like weightlifting.For a start...

[Khadidja Aisha 29]

there totaly wrong to punsh Russia, when at least 5 countries are worse than Russia, Kazakstan, Uzbekistan, Azerbadjan, Thailand and Egypt, the reak thing that you vill punish Russia has nothing to to with sports, but i think Russia sould answer whit a bojkott of the olympic games. Not just 2020, but so long russians are harrased.