[OFF TOPIC] Politics Thread

[Olympian1010 7,976]

28 minutes ago, Monzanator said:

 

There are no double standards. Communism is downright evil. I don't know any of the Soviet satellites in Eastern Europe who want this system to make a grand return anytime soon. We might be negative towards EU sometimes but communism as the replacement? Never! You have no idea how bad this system is. You might cherish it on paper but in reality it's just horrible. Sadly, you have no idea what are you talking about. I suppose you're not gonna live in North Korea for an extended period of time anytime soon to see what the pros of communism really are? Whatever they are, the negatives outweight them by a ton and then some. It's not even the freedom of speech but food rationing or stores where you can only buy vinegar & mustard because there is nothing else there?

 

If you like vinegar you'd love the choice here:

 

I just don’t agree. Communism is a blight humanity; absolutely. There are are pros though. What Bernie and I agree is that if we truly wanted the system, we’d combine multiple systems to make the best one. Communism was horrible, you are absolutely right, but there are still some things worth “stealing” from it.

[Monzanator 4,502]

@Olympian1010  Well, good luck in trying to make communism work in USA   I see no point in talking about this rotten system after half of Europe got rid of it. If Bernie Sanders thinks he's reinvented the wheel that is his problem

[Agger 1,663]

7 hours ago, konig said:

Well, from our point of view: in Robin Hood is the king (the state) taking money from his people........

and from this point of view, the state taking money from the people doesnt change......the state can be diferent for the form of goverment but still being state.

 

The Prince takes the money from the people to his own good and other rich people.

It's simply a massive lack of understanding history if you compare those two.

Some people don't like taxes, fair enough, but bad historical analogies are laughable (yes, Robin Hood is a fairytale, but the idea of taxing the poor for living where they live (and maybe a bit for defense) wasn't really unusual).

[Agger 1,663]

3 hours ago, Monzanator said:

 

There are no double standards. Communism is downright evil.

 

To be fair, a lot of (modern) communists would say that the actual communist state has never existed. 

Most of us would never (for good reasons) give it a try, as what was supposed to be a transition has always ended up as the actual situation. In a purely theoretical situation where it went fullblown communism at once, maybe there would be some goods in there. But once again, I doubt that would ever happen, as some strong person would see a way to take control.

[Monzanator 4,502]

6 minutes ago, Agger said:

 

To be fair, a lot of (modern) communists would say that the actual communist state has never existed. 

Most of us would never (for good reasons) give it a try, as what was supposed to be a transition has always ended up as the actual situation. In a purely theoretical situation where it went fullblown communism at once, maybe there would be some goods in there. But once again, I doubt that would ever happen, as some strong person would see a way to take control.

 

Right, who is going to believe in such baloney? The communist rebranding happened because it couldn't beat capitalism so it used its methods to rise in power as clearly evident by China's economy.

 

Then again, we had this rebranding in the early 70s in Poland. The old communists who were even NKVD agents before WWII were finally run out of business and replaced by the new generation which called themselves "sociallists" But it was the same communist BS and come 1981 and the martial law everyone saw right through it again and the system was on it's way out which finally happened in 1989.

[Agger 1,663]

15 minutes ago, Monzanator said:

 

Right, who is going to believe in such baloney? The communist rebranding happened because it couldn't beat capitalism so it used its methods to rise in power as clearly evident by China's economy.

 

Then again, we had this rebranding in the early 70s in Poland. The old communists who were even NKVD agents before WWII were finally run out of business and replaced by the new generation which called themselves "sociallists" But it was the same communist BS and come 1981 and the martial law everyone saw right through it again and the system was on it's way out which finally happened in 1989.

 

Looking at Marx's ideas, there is the interim period called the "dictatorship of the proletariat". It's really vague and could therefore easily be interpreted like Lenin, Stalin or Mao did (just to mention the most familiar). Krushchev did declare that dictatorship ended, but in reality it didn't.

The pure communist idea hasn't really been excercised and it isn't likely to be so ever (other than in very small communities).

I would in no way be defending the idea, but it's not really wrong to say that.

 

I am in no way in opposition to your thoughts on what communism has done to too many countries, I'm just looking at the actual ideology behind the idea.

[Monzanator 4,502]

10 minutes ago, Agger said:

 

Looking at Marx's ideas, there is the interim period called the "dictatorship of the proletariat". It's really vague and could therefore easily be interpreted like Lenin, Stalin or Mao did (just to mention the most familiar). Krushchev did declare that dictatorship ended, but in reality it didn't.

The pure communist idea hasn't really been excercised and it isn't likely to be so ever (other than in very small communities).

I would in no way be defending the idea, but it's not really wrong to say that.

 

I am in no way in opposition to your thoughts on what communism has done to too many countries, I'm just looking at the actual ideology behind the idea.

 

Politics is no longer about ideology. Communism was the last system that tried to sell "ideology" as the driving force of the people. You can put Marx's ideas into museum, they are absolutely worthless these days when it comes to reality of the world. Even China runs a hard business line and has risen as economical power. Dare I say they are doing a lot better than during Mao's regime and the pure communist agenda. Communism succeeded when the imperial powers collapsed at the end of World War I. That was the high-water mark. Power to the people. Well, people have power these days instead of family-run monarchies so the ideals are not required anymore.

 

Reality always verifies the theory and communism theory has failed massively in real life

[Agger 1,663]

3 minutes ago, Monzanator said:

 

Politics is no longer about ideology. Communism was the last system that tried to sell "ideology" as the driving force of the people. You can put Marx's ideas into museum, they are absolutely worthless these days when it comes to reality of the world. Even China runs a hard business line and has risen as economical power. Dare I say they are doing a lot better than during Mao's regime and the pure communist agenda. Communism succeeded when the imperial powers collapsed at the end of World War I. That was the high-water mark. Power to the people. Well, people have power these days instead of family-run monarchies so the ideals are not required anymore.

 

Reality always verifies the theory and communism theory has failed massively in real life

 

It is much less about ideology than the old days, no doubt, but not at all? I'm disagreing there. It's really only true if you see ideology as a purely stativ thing. 

But that really doesn't matter in this discussion. I'm just pointing on a slight flaw in the pro/con-communism discussion that you and Olympian1010 were having. Overall I agree with you, but I do see ways to defend Olympian1010's ideas.

Mao didn't run on a "pure communist agenda". He did make it sound like it, but just as other self-appointed communist leaders he used the idea without really considering the people that it should in fact help, just like we would see in any new communist state.

Secondary, you can always find something positive. The good old "Hitler was terrible but he did afterall..."-comment (fill in the blank) is seen from time to time. Nothing is black and white and though the bad things did without doubt overshadow the slight good parts, if you search long enough, some statistic could be positive. Cherry-picking is afterall something plenty of groups like doing nowadays. The society doesn't work that way, but it can still be an interesting excercise.

 

There will always be firm believers in different ideologies. 

[heywoodu 15,141]

5 hours ago, Olympian1010 said:

I just don’t agree. Communism is a blight humanity; absolutely. There are are pros though. What Bernie and I agree is that if we truly wanted the system, we’d combine multiple systems to make the best one. Communism was horrible, you are absolutely right, but there are still some things worth “stealing” from it.

 

That's exactly the same when talking about Adolf Hitler and his nazism, he also had some good ideas and plans in between all the massive evil. It doesn't make his system less massively evil.

[Monzanator 4,502]

11 minutes ago, Agger said:

 

It is much less about ideology than the old days, no doubt, but not at all? I'm disagreing there. It's really only true if you see ideology as a purely stativ thing. 

But that really doesn't matter in this discussion. I'm just pointing on a slight flaw in the pro/con-communism discussion that you and Olympian1010 were having. Overall I agree with you, but I do see ways to defend Olympian1010's ideas.

Mao didn't run on a "pure communist agenda". He did make it sound like it, but just as other self-appointed communist leaders he used the idea without really considering the people that it should in fact help, just like we would see in any new communist state.

Secondary, you can always find something positive. The good old "Hitler was terrible but he did afterall..."-comment (fill in the blank) is seen from time to time. Nothing is black and white and though the bad things did without doubt overshadow the slight good parts, if you search long enough, some statistic could be positive. Cherry-picking is afterall something plenty of groups like doing nowadays. The society doesn't work that way, but it can still be an interesting excercise.

 

There will always be firm believers in different ideologies. 

 

If someone wants to cherry pick the communism I'm OUT! 40 years of this bullshit in Eastern Europe should teach everyone what a waste it was. Guess Denmark needs a strictly communism regime to find out in reality how those Marx theories work

 

Mao and Khruschov split in late 50s and Mao was scared of losing power on the heels of Cult of Stalin going downhill following Khruschov's speech in 1956. The LAST thing I will do is to debate whether the Great Leap and Chinese way was the "real communism" or better than USSR way. They were both equally worthless on the long run.