Deleted by Sindo on 08/22/2023 - will be permanently removed on 08/21/2025
32 minutes ago, Grassmarket said:
And if they do, you’ll be complaining they’re all doped.
No, i only write that about athletes that win medals out of nowhere. For example a british 400 m runner who jogged to a new european record today. Obviously too complex for you to understand. I guess when you are from one of the worst doping countries in the world (15 medals at the 1996 olympics -> 65 medals at the 2012 olympics) you have to believe in clean sports out of self protection.
Edited by OlympicsFan
Attachment is the great fabricator of illusions; reality can be obtained only by someone who is detached.
Another massive underperformance by Italy. Tamberi only with the gold medal despite being tied 3rd on the entry list. Will be interesting to compare the position of the italian athletes on the entry list with the number of their medals/top 8 finishes.
Attachment is the great fabricator of illusions; reality can be obtained only by someone who is detached.
Beyond disgusting improvement by Tausaga. Improving her PB by 4 m as a 25 year old ...
The Netherlands turned into a powerhouse almost over night. They used to be irrelevant and now they develop new medal contenders every year. Wouldn't be shocked if they would win 10 medals next year:
3 x Hassan
Bol
Klaver
4 x 400 m women's relay
4 x 400 m mixed relay
Van Klinken
Schilder
1-2 x Laros
Vetter/Oosterwegel
Maybe Weerman/Bouju
Attachment is the great fabricator of illusions; reality can be obtained only by someone who is detached.
From that article, it doesn't seem that german anti-doping is swimming in cash. And for reference french anti doping agency has a budget of 11.2 M€ vs 12 M€ (apparently) for its german counterpart which must be about an average Bundesliga 3 team budget or something...
1) So you name one country and that country doesn't even have a higher budget?
2) Even if the german NADA would be bankrupt, it wouldn't mean anything. They could be bankrupt while getting 100 million euros a year if they wouldn't know how to manage their money. The amount of funding is one thing and the way they spend their money is another thing. Apart from that everyone (at least in Germany) always cries that they don't get enough money (german sports also constantly complain that they don't have enough money, when in reality they get more and more money every olympiad). I guess that is the best strategy to get what you need, but the fact that the amount of money the german state is spending has exploded, doesn't really fit with the narrative that everyone is always underfunded.
Attachment is the great fabricator of illusions; reality can be obtained only by someone who is detached.
well, Italy has a stricter anti-doping law (even the athletes could theoretically end up in jail...Schwazer had to admit all of his faults in 2012 and pay a very high prize -not only the 4 year ban, he also lost his job in the Carabinieri group and had to pay a high fine to avoid jail) and NADO is really drawing a lot of funds from the general sport account (the problem is that they spend all of them pursuing amateur athletes and being part of some plots related to the internal wars in the Italian sport system)
for instead, I can only name a few episodes (all in the last 15 years, so well after the end of the former GDR histeria):
Deutsche Telekom, Jan Ullrich and his teammates attending Dr. Fuentes lab
Humansplasma clinic in Wien (managed by a German doctor and attended by all the best cross country skiers and biathletes of that age)
operation Aderlass
and I could add the Leipold case (Sydney 2000) and Sachenbacher when she switched to biathlon and a few more
not that I'm blaming more than any other...all the Countries have their skeletons in the closet ( included...we all know who dr. Conconi and dr. Ferrari are and where they come from -just to name a couple, don't worry)
I'm only loughing at the idea that the German coaches/officials have a true adversion to certain methods...it's not...they're just as many others (sure, not the worst in the world, we all know that there are some "addicted" to certain methods that go way beyond the average)
I am still waiting for the list of countries with stricter anti-doping laws and a better funded NADA. Not sure why you felt comfortable enough to chime in when you clearly can't name those countries ...
The german anti-doping law also asks for athletes to land in jail (up to 3 years) and the people behind it can also end up in jail (up to 10 years). Not sure how that makes the italian law more strict?
Also not sure what the cases you named have to do with anything? Nowhere did i claim that there is no doping in Germany, but that the consequences of getting caught are more severe and that athletes and coaches are more hesitant to use doping. Also there is less incentive to dope (since the medal bonuses in Germany are laughable and unless you are a soccer player, it is almost impossible to earn a decent living as an athlete). You can compare how Armstrong and Ulrich were treated after getting caught if you want to see the difference between the US and Germany (Ulrich destroying his life (becoming a drug addict) + german TV not showing the Tour de France anymore). Also not sure why you feel the need to mention things that german nationals did in other countries? You are basically proving my point (german officials couldn't keep their doping going in Germany, so they went abroad). Another interesting case (if you want to educate yourself) would be Armin Klümper. When athletes like Sachenbacher, Ulrich, Klöden, Friesinger, Niemann-Stirnemann, Baumann or Schumann were at their peak, Germany was far more successful in classic endurance sports like cycling, cross-country skiing, rowing or speed skating. You might ask yourself why Germany became completely irrelevant in those sports (did they forget everything or weren't they willing/able anymore to use the same methods that made them successful before)? Also if i remember correctly Sachenbacher only got "banned" for 5 days, if that is one of the biggest cases you could find, then that isn't very convincing. Interestingly enough her coach at that time was a certain Wolfgang Pichler, who later went on to rebuild the swedish biathlon team from scratch ... (i am sure you see a pattern here). You have clearly shown that you aren't really familiar with german sport or the doping discussion in Germany. I think you only really know how hot this topic is if you are actually german. After everything that happened in the GDR (doping children, athletes dying, doping athletes without their knowledge), this topic is completely "burned" in Germany. I think the only people in Germany that are treated worse than dopers (and their coaches) are pedophiles. I don't think that you can compare it with the situation in any other country. Would be like comparing the antisemitism/right-wing politics discussion in Germany with the same discussion in other countries. It absolutely doesn't compare.
Other interesting (former GDR) coaches you might want to look into:
Jürgen Gröbler (rowing coach who went to )
Jutta Lau (rowing coach who went to )
Uwe Hohn & Klaus Bartonietz (athletics coaches who went to India, former coaches of olympic champion Neeraj Chopra)
Dieter Kollark (athletics coach who went to China, former coach of olympic champion Gong Lijiao)
Wolfgang Pichler (biathlon coach who coached in and now )
Markus Cramer (cross-country skiing coach who coached in and Cologna, now coaches in ...)
Joachim Franke (former coach of Claudia Pechstein)
Gabriele Fuß & Stephan Gneupel (former coach of Gunda Niemann-Stirnemann)
Ekkart Arbeit (athletics coach who worked in and , wanted to hire him before their home olympics in 2000)
Klaus Rudolph (swimming coach who worked in )
Heiko Salzwedel (track cycling coach who worked in and )
Hartmut Buschbacher (rowing coach who worked in & )
Frank Rogall (rowing coach who worked in )
Harald Jährling (rowing coach who worked in )
Eberhard Mund (rowing coach who worked in )
Theodor Körner (rowing coach who worked in )
Wolfgang Richter (swimming coach who worked in )
Edited by OlympicsFan
Attachment is the great fabricator of illusions; reality can be obtained only by someone who is detached.
So by that argument, I assume that you believe that the likes of Femke Bol, Karsten Warholm, Jakob Ingebrigtsen and Nafissatou Thiam must be doping - or is it just athletes/countries that you don't like that you believe are doping?
Yes
Attachment is the great fabricator of illusions; reality can be obtained only by someone who is detached.
wow! Denny could have won many finals with that result but finish 4th.
And Czech Did the third ever 70+ Throw in a world final, after father Alekna and himself - and get that Championship record stolen a minute later, in bad discus Throw conditions!
disastrous from Swedish tv, commercials destruering celebrations and almost missed the 110m hurldes final because of the commercials
1) It is Čeh
2) I don't think that Čeh broke the CR
Edited by OlympicsFan
Attachment is the great fabricator of illusions; reality can be obtained only by someone who is detached.
GB's improved performance could also be down to the fact that after their shambolic performance in Atlanta, UK Sport got wise to the fact that they need to be more professional and the Govt introduced the national lottery to help fund elite sport with millions of schmucks spending a pound a week in the hope of becoming a millionaire.
Doesn't have to be one or the other, but without doping all of this is irrelevant. China also claimed that their secret in the 90s was turtle soup. Of course you always have to try to give an explanation that gullible people can believe/plausible deniability, but the answer is always doping. People claiming that it is possible to dominate without doping are extremely disrespectful/insulting.
Attachment is the great fabricator of illusions; reality can be obtained only by someone who is detached.
I love how everyone from every country always feels like their country is performing badly. Which is just impossible, because if every country performs badly, we're going to be left with medals that aren't won by anyone
It isn't impossible, unless you use the number of medals to define good/bad. The actual performances matter as well. In the end every country always will have some athletes overperforming and some athletes underperforming and it depends how you weigh those two groups.
Attachment is the great fabricator of illusions; reality can be obtained only by someone who is detached.
and please, don't tell me "in Tokyo", as it was just an exception, when we had 3 medal candidates and we came home with 5 gold medals (and only in athletics, because in the other sports we didn't maximize anything also in those "happy days" of 2021)
Tokyo was probably the biggest overperformance any country ever had in athletics (you can look at past olympics and tell me how often any european country won 5 golds). How much more do you expect? At this point everyone knows that you can't judge anything related to italian sports objectively.
Attachment is the great fabricator of illusions; reality can be obtained only by someone who is detached.
@OlympicsFanWell, let's see if Mihambo injury woes continue into 2024. USA doesn't have a Reese type jumper either. Vuleta isn't blind, the overall level of LJ has dropped compared to the 2010s. Germany still have some push in the javelin but the track events have completely folded. Nothing in 400/800 or hurdles. Compared to the early 1990s when I started watching athletics Germany has regressed the most out of European countries (followed by France). Meanwhile countries like Netherlands and Italy are maximizing their chances and winning more medals than expected.
Difficult to lead a discussion when you can't even quote (i don't get a message that you quoted me and therefore might not reply, which surely wasn't your goal).
Track events were never really "a thing" in western/unified Germany. I think the last global champions were Baumann (caught doping) and Schumann (some rumors as well). If Germany would have continued to use the GDR doping knowledge, they would now be much more competitive. Instead german coaches went to countries like GB or China to continue their dop... training. Actually Germany hasn't been as good in the 400 m hurdles as they are today (although 2 of their 3 best guys are injured right now), but you are right about the other events. Italy also had a big downturn (same as Spain) after they were pretty good in running in the 1990s/2000s. Then those countries had some doping trouble (in running/cycling), which lead to them "laying low" for a while (and some of their officials going to african countries for example), but now they seem to be back. I think the situation in finish cross-country skiing is comparable. The Netherlands and GB didn't have that "burden", so they had less reservations using performance enhancing drugs. GB used to be insanely bad in sports until 2000 or so, but then they completely exploded and even all the stories around team Sky, Dwain Chambers Paula Radcliffe didn't really hurt them.
Attachment is the great fabricator of illusions; reality can be obtained only by someone who is detached.
@OlympicsFanWell, let's see if Mihambo injury woes continue into 2024. USA doesn't have a Reese type jumper either. Vuleta isn't blind, the overall level of LJ has dropped compared to the 2010s. Germany still have some push in the javelin but the track events have completely folded. Nothing in 400/800 or hurdles. Compared to the early 1990s when I started watching athletics Germany has regressed the most out of European countries (followed by France). Meanwhile countries like Netherlands and Italy are maximizing their chances and winning more medals than expected.
Difficult to lead a discussion when you can't even quote (i don't get a message that you quoted me and therefore might not reply, which surely wasn't your goal).
Track events were never really "a thing" in western/unified Germany. I think the last global champions were Baumann (caught doping) and Schumann (some rumors as well). If Germany would have continued to use the GDR doping knowledge, they would now be much more competitive. Instead german coaches went to countries like GB or China to continue their dop... training. Actually Germany hasn't been as good in the 400 m hurdles as they are today (although 2 of their 3 best guys are injured right now), but you are right about the other events. Italy also had a big downturn (same as Spain) after they were pretty good in running in the 1990s/2000s. Then those countries had some doping trouble (in running/cycling), which lead to them "laying low" for a while (and some of their officials going to african countries for example), but now they seem to be back. I think the situation in finish cross-country skiing is comparable. The Netherlands and GB didn't have that "burden", so they had less reservations using performance enhancing drugs. GB used to be insanely bad in sports until 2000 or so, but then they completely exploded and even all the stories around team Sky, Dwain Chambers Paula Radcliffe didn't really hurt them.
Attachment is the great fabricator of illusions; reality can be obtained only by someone who is detached.
1: Rheinmetall built a factory in Hungary this year and another one is under constructon (military).
How much money goes back to Germany through your company!
No, the Hungarians are not happy with the underfunded education or healthcare!
2: Which is a big loss to the host countries!
3: Agree! And the tax payers have every right to know how much money is spent to the migrants! How many of them are able to work?
4: Do you have source? Because in Hungary we have two opinions about this: Hungary gets nothing or Hungary gets much more than the other ex-eastern countries.
5: could you show me an alternative gas source to Hungary? Because we have two pipes: one from Ukraine and one from Serbia. And these pipes supply Slovakia and partly Chechia!
And Hungary have two oil pipes: one from Ukraine and one from Croatia! Both countries rised brutally the transit fee! In the name of Solidarity!
1 & 2) Not sure what point you are trying to make. Are you saying that Rheinmetall creating jobs in Hungary is a loss for Hungary (or for Germany)?
Rheinmetall is profiting (better margin) and Hungary as well (more jobs), the german public not so much (less jobs).
3) Not sure about the point you are trying to make. I am perfectly fine with Hungary not taking in any migrants. While you are at it you should just stop them from traveling through your country to other EU countries. I guess Putin wouldn't be happy about that, so not sure how realistic that is.
5) I guess you could do what basically all other countries that used to be dependant on russian gas did ...
I don't blame Hungary for doing this (Germany for example made the same "mistake"), but obviously Hungary remaining dependant on russian gas (and therefore making it easy for Puting to "blackmail" them) isn't in the best interest of other EU countries. Maybe they raised the transit fee to force you to go away from russian gas, who knows ...
Attachment is the great fabricator of illusions; reality can be obtained only by someone who is detached.
Sadly the truth, i wish it wasn't. After what happened with GDR anyone who is remotely connected to anything doping-related gets bullied by the public. German coaches went to countries like China or GB to avoid this nonsense. Please name the countries that have a more strict anti-doping law and a better funded NADA. I am sure an expert like you, who felt confident laughing about my statement, can easily provide the information. I am sure that this isn't just another case where you are hyper biased (Alex Schwazer/anything related with italian sports).
Attachment is the great fabricator of illusions; reality can be obtained only by someone who is detached.
European economy and everything else is already built for the country to function. Plus their politicians aren't stealing that much (in contrast of what Western media like to talk about Orban).
Now Bulgarian politicians are a different breed. With all the stolen money and corruption here in the last 12 years, that went for hotels in Northern Greece, we could probably build 5 such stadiums. Some countries just know their priorities.
Good to hear ...
Overall very poor/ideologically-driven "analysis".
1) People like Orban or Putin can pour insane amounts of money into sports (or military) because they aren't held as accountable as western politicians. Of course we all know that for example every american war (Vietnam, Afghanistan) since 1945 has been for financial reasons as well, so western politicians aren't much better. Would be interesting to know who earned money with building all the venues in Hungary ...
In the end Orban can claim that he did spend all the money for his people (bringing all those sporting events to Hungary), while in reality he transfered european tax payer money to his friends/family who built the venues. Hungarian people are happy and probably don't ask if the money wouldn't have been better spent on education or healthcare.
2) Obviously it helps that western companies invest in Hungary (because production there is cheaper).
3) Personally i think that western european tax payers have every right to be pissed about Orban using their money to enrich himself. Of course Orban isn't the only one, the same happens with development aid in countries like Ethiopia.
4) Hungary gets more than twice as much money as Bulgaria from the EU.
5) I think it also helps Hungary that they still get gas from Russia. Some people might ask why the EU accepts that Hungary constantly acts against its interests and why Hungary is still part of the EU, but of course kicking Hungary out would hurt western european companies that produce there, so this probably won't happen.
6) It is interesting to look at the role Orban played in connection with the planned Nabucco pipeline.
Attachment is the great fabricator of illusions; reality can be obtained only by someone who is detached.
Heike Drechsler was winning gold medals at 36 so it's not that insane - especially that Vuleta still has Paris OG on her mind.
Germany had their golden era in the throwing field events - but the overall German athletics has regressed badly once the last athletes who remember the 1990s training programmes retired.
1) Drechsler was infinitely better than Spanovic. Her PB was infinitely better than Spanovic's PB, so obviously she had much more room for error (age) and it doesn't make sense to compare them. Also doesn't matter what Spanovic "has on her mind". Robert-Michon also has Paris on her mind, doesn't mean that she is a medal contender or can stop ageing.
2) Germany won 1 medal at the 2008 olympics and then, 7 years later, 8 medals at the 2015 world championships. Not a single one of the athletes who won medals in 2015 was in any way relevant in the 90s. Germany could instantly be infinitely better if they would find a way to avoid 80 % of their athletes constantly being injured (Farken, Petros, Vetter, Ansah, Ansah-Peprah, Agyekum, Preis, Lita Baehre, Heß, Röhler, Hofmann, Mayer, Trost, Klein, Klosterhalfen, Meyer, Krause, Mihambo, Eckhardt, Hussong, Schäfer). Mihambo obviously could have sleepwalked to a medal if she would have been healthy and Vetter/Hussong also would have won a medal even at 80 %. Farken, Lita Baehre, Heß, Röhler, Klosterhalfen, Meyer, Krause, Mihambo, Eckhardt, Hussong, Schäfer all could/would have made the top 8 if healthy. Germany also just recently won 23 medals at the U20 european championships, as many as GB, France and Italy combined. The main problems for german athletics are injuries, the transition from junior to senior level and the aversion to using performance enhancing drugs due to ideological reasons. The Netherlands and Norway have far less talent and far less elite athletes, but still normally win more medals because their main athletes (Ingebrigtsen, Warholm, Bol, Hassan) are basically always performing (no injuries). Germany might be the most doping-averse country in the world (maybe next to Japan), thanks to the GDR past. Countries like the Netherlands, Norway, Poland, GB and obviously USA/Russia/China/Kenya/Ethiopia have zero problems with using performance enhancing drugs and of course this means more medals for them. German officials got brainwashed into hurting themselves by categorically refusing to use performance enhacing drugs. Just sad that the taxpayer still has to pay for their "morally"-guided suicide mission. Either you fund elite athletes with tax payer money and try everything to maximize their performance or you accept that it is impossible to win medals without performance enhacing drugs and stop financing a hopeless fight (for medals). Sadly this kind of "magical thinking" (believing in winning medals without performance enhacing drugs) is very prevalent in Germany across all sorts of topics (immigration, climate change). Pretty much all other countries are more pragmatic and more focused on their own interest instead of only caring about what they could do to feel morally superior.
Attachment is the great fabricator of illusions; reality can be obtained only by someone who is detached.
or the IOC might cut their requests for "cathedrals in the desert" down...
I think Budapest already have a lot of venues more than suitable for the OGs and if only the IOC could accept to host some sports in temporary pavillions in an "Exhibition Complex" in town (which would host any sort of activity as a legacy after the games), then also smaller Countries like (or ) might be able one day to enjoy Home Olympics
otherwise it will be more and more difficult for them to find a big city really wanting to spend so much money, except maybe for some Nations under dictatorships in search for propaganda
This discussion has been held a billion times in the past decades. I think Japan also claimed that they wouldn't spend insane amounts of money on the olympics, but in the end they still did. Personally i think that the IOC would rather give the olympics to Saudi-Arabia or Qatar than to lower their demands so much that hosting the olympics wouldn't be a huge waste of money for the host country. Also not sure why you act as if it is Hungary on the one hand and dictatorships on the other hand ... what is the reason for Hungary hosting half of the big competitions nowadays if not propaganda for Orban?
Attachment is the great fabricator of illusions; reality can be obtained only by someone who is detached.
I think this Athletic WC is more than enough to a small country. Olympics, Football WC are very expensive games.
But an Olympics close to Hungary would count the sport lover Hungarians!
Not sure if it would be in the best financial interest of a small country like Hungary to host such a big event? The last time such a small country hosted summer olympics was in 2004. I think most greek people would say that it wasn't a positive thing for them. Hungary would probably have to build multiple big arenas (for football) or maybe find a co-host (Austria). European games or YOG might be a better fit for Hungary, at least for a start. I think even a country like the Netherlands might be too small for summer olympics.
Attachment is the great fabricator of illusions; reality can be obtained only by someone who is detached.
Women's long jump: Pretty weak behind Spanovic. Insane that she peaks at such an old age. Mihambo shouldn't lose too much sleep over this. Iapichino was a massive letdown. Luzolo for sure had the chance to finish top 6, but sadly she couldn't even replicate her performance from prelims.
Women's heptathlon: Pretty low level for bronze. Right now Thiam, KJT and Hall look like the clear favorites for the medals next year, but maybe someone else can step up and get to 6700-6800 points. Weißenberg would have won bronze with 6.40 m in the long jump.
Men's hammer throw: Insane that Katzenberg improved by 12 m in 2 years ... i wish Germany would some day find an athlete with such a rate of improvement.
Attachment is the great fabricator of illusions; reality can be obtained only by someone who is detached.
Maybe Norway should share some of their secrets with Denmark/Sweden/Finland. For some reason Norway is the only nordic country that is able to produce world class runners ...
Attachment is the great fabricator of illusions; reality can be obtained only by someone who is detached.
instead, I can only name a few episodes (all in the last 15 years, so well after the end of the former GDR histeria):
included...we all know who dr. Conconi and dr. Ferrari are and where they come from -just to name a couple, don't worry)
)
)
Neeraj Chopra)
and now 
)
Cologna, now coaches in 
, 
wanted to hire him before their home olympics in 2000)
& 
)
)
(or 
) might be able one day to enjoy Home Olympics
Posted (edited) · Deleted by Sindo on 08/22/2023 - will be permanently removed on 08/21/2025
No, i only write that about athletes that win medals out of nowhere. For example a british 400 m runner who jogged to a new european record today. Obviously too complex for you to understand. I guess when you are from one of the worst doping countries in the world (15 medals at the 1996 olympics -> 65 medals at the 2012 olympics) you have to believe in clean sports out of self protection.
Edited by OlympicsFanAttachment is the great fabricator of illusions; reality can be obtained only by someone who is detached.
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