Wrestling 2020 Discussion Thread

[MHSN 3,619]

there is nothing to watch these days ,so let's see some old matches

 

so many wrestling fans (including myself) consider Buvaisar Saitiev as the best freestyle wrestler of all time. he is 3 time Olympic Champion, 6 times World Champion and 6 times European Champion. if we count World and Olympic titles, only Aleksander Karelin has more gold medals than him (10 comparing to 9) but then Karelin was a SHW and it's always easier to dominate in heavier weights.

 

if you look at him, and his muscles he doesn't look like a great great wrestler, but he was the most technical wrestler ever without doubt,  his hand work was the best ever. always forcing his opponents to collapse.

 

Saitiev lost couple times in Russian nationals, but as far as I know in his senior career he lost only twice in international competitions, 2000 Olympics group stage to Brandon Slay (USA) and quarterfinals of 2006 World Championships to Mihail Ganev (BUL) , interestingly these 2 guys were not such big big names, Slay only represented USA once and won silver in Sydney Olympics (after beating Saitiev) but then his silver turned to gold after the gold medalist Leipold (GER) tested positive for doping, Mihail Ganev won a world title 4 years later but he didn't even medal in that tournament he beat Saitiev., Saitiev lost that match mostly because he gassed.

 

kind of interesting to watch these matches, rules were completely different back then. even from 2000 to 2007 we had big big changes.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm not sure how many times Saitiev lost in Russia but I'm aware of two matches (I assume he didn't lost any more matches) once in 2002 Russian Nationals to Magomed Isagadzhiev and once at 2007 Nationals to Makhach Murtazaliev.

from 1995 to 2008 Saitiev was always Russian repersentative except those 2 years he lost their trials and also 1999 when he gave the spot to his brother Adam Saitiev.

 

 

 

 

[MHSN 3,619]

another trip to the history

 

this is the biggest upset in wrestling history, (I consider Saitiev losing to Brandon Slay as the 2nd) Aleksander Karelin lost the last match of his career to Rulon Gardner (USA) in 2000 Olympics final. here is a short documentary about that match, I could post the whole bout instead but that was boring (Greco-Roman in higher weights are always boring)

 

you can hear this in the documentary too I have to repeat it that Karelin was undefeated for 13 years ! he didn't give up a point for 6 or 7 years.

 

there is a mistake in this documentary about old rules, here they say when the score was tied or the difference was just 1 point the match goes to the extra time, that's wrong. in that time wrestlers had to score 3 points or more to win the match after 6 minutes, otherwise 3 minutes of extra time was needed for tied matches or if the score was 1-0, 2-1 or 2-0.

unlike current rules, in case of passivity they would just give a chance on top to the opponent to score in par-terre. (currently they also give 1 point to the attacking wrestler) Gardner was penalized for passivity 3 times but Karelin failed to execute his famous "Karelin Lift". even in those times when someone was VERY passive and visibly fleeing they could penalize him with caution and 1 point. but they didn't in that specific match. some people think they should but I think that was correct because at the time you had to be very passive to be penalized like that. and Gardner's passivity wasn't like that.

 

 last and the most important thing, there was a rule from 2000 to 2004, named as clinch (or chest to chest) they changed it several times but in 2000 it was happening in case of 0-0 after the first period, they would start the 2nd period in chest to chest to make sure someone scores. and that's how Gardner scored on the great Karelin, because Karelin opened his locked fingers (accidentally or intentionally to execute an attack)

 

I think Karelin would never lose to this guy under current rules , right now they punish the passive wrestler with no mercy (even though sometimes refs are not fair) but Karelin vs Lopez would be the best of the best. Lopez senior career started a year later, he never faced Karelin.

 

 

 

[phelps 7,670]

just about Buvaisar Saitiev...

 

unfortunately the interview is in Russian, but if someone somehow can understand (or get a translation)...

 

 

 

about Karelin, he's my all time favourite athlete...I think he's the best ever in the history of sport (for what might count such kind of comparison)...

 

and his loss to Gardner to me is the biggest sport upset ever...

 

p.s. in these days I'm watching a lot of videos from past championships...I found some of the 2010 Worlds finals in Moscow...and I just can't believe Frank Chamizo was wrestling (for Cuba) at 55kg (he did even win the bronze medal!), while now he's fully fit at 74kg...

[heywoodu 15,135]

How is it so terribly sad if someone who has been dominating everything for 13 years loses? I'd say that's generally pretty awesome actually, upsets are often some of the best things in sports  

 

Also for the general public, there's not much to make out of "athlete X was unbeaten for 13 years, and then won again" against "athlete X was unbeaten for 13 years, but athlete Y did the impossible!".

[phelps 7,670]

1 hour ago, heywoodu said:

How is it so terribly sad if someone who has been dominating everything for 13 years loses? I'd say that's generally pretty awesome actually, upsets are often some of the best things in sports  

 

Also for the general public, there's not much to make out of "athlete X was unbeaten for 13 years, and then won again" against "athlete X was unbeaten for 13 years, but athlete Y did the impossible!".

 

well, first to me (and it's only an absolutely personal feeling) it's sad because I used to be a big fan of him and I always enjoyed watching him destroy his opponents...

 

then, it's also somehow sad in general because at the time he announced before Sydney 2000 that it was going to be his last appearance on the global stage as an athlete, so that day all the sports fans were ready to celebrate him for being only the second sportsman ever in history to go unbeaten through all his career after Rocky Marciano (not counting some pro boxers of the last 20/25 years, when you have at least 4/5 world champions in each weight class and not all of them face each other in their entire life)...

but unfortunately for him, that didn't happen because of a guy looking the opposite of a great athlete, opposed to a man that has always looked like a model athlete despite wrestling among the heavyweights...

so, when a great achievement like that goes by, to me it's always a bit sad (even if in normal circumstance I'm more a fan of big upsets than predictable wins)...

 

of course this is only my point of view...I know that many people have a different feeling about that day...

[MHSN 3,619]

4 hours ago, heywoodu said:

How is it so terribly sad if someone who has been dominating everything for 13 years loses? I'd say that's generally pretty awesome actually, upsets are often some of the best things in sports  

 

Also for the general public, there's not much to make out of "athlete X was unbeaten for 13 years, and then won again" against "athlete X was unbeaten for 13 years, but athlete Y did the impossible!".

 

That's how I always think, for example I really like Sadulaev and always enjoys watching him but I always want him to lose for the same reason

 

but that specific match was different, that was the last match of his career. I think you always want a great athlete like him finishes his career with a win. and Gardner was kind of an anti-hero, he didn't really beat Karelin by  his technique , he was defensive the entire match and won it thanks to those rules, he did nothing wrong though, when you are weaker you have to count on your luck too. it's hard to score on SHW Greco-Roman, even nowadays lots of matches are decided just by cautions.

[heywoodu 15,135]

23 minutes ago, MHSN said:

 

That's how I always think, for example I really like Sadulaev and always enjoys watching him but I always want him to lose for the same reason

 

but that specific match was different, that was the last match of his career. I think you always want a great athlete like him finishes his career with a win. and Gardner was kind of an anti-hero, he didn't really beat Karelin by  his technique , he was defensive the entire match and won it thanks to those rules, he did nothing wrong though, when you are weaker you have to count on your luck too. it's hard to score on SHW Greco-Roman, even nowadays lots of matches are decided just by cautions.

 

Makes me think a little about Usain Bolt, for sure his last race was....memorable  

[MHSN 3,619]

I had a post about Buvaisar Saitiev and how great he was, he was usually a very calm and polite person but there was one accident in his career. in Athens 2004 Olympics, he beat his old rival Murad Gaidarov in quarterfinal 3-2 in extra time. this is the video of what happened after the match.

 

while wrestling for Belarus Gaidarov is actually from Dagestan (same as Saitiev) and apparently they were old rivals back in their own town, Gaidarov had to wrestle for somewhere else, he caused problems for Saitiev multiple times even though he never beat the "genius" , their 2003 WCh final ended only 2-2 for Saitiev. because of bad luck World finalists had to face each other in the QF (no repechage at the time) unfortunately I couldn't find the match on youtube  but I remember Saitiev scored twice on chest-to-chest.

 

while they needed 10 guys to stop Gaidarov, but it was Saitiev who threw the first punch, but amazingly they only disqualified Gaidarov. in a normal world they had to disqualify Saitiev too but he was a BIG name and also he was from Russia. they let him continue and the rest of the competition was too easy for him. Brzozowski and Laliyev was no match.

 

 

[heywoodu 15,135]

Dagestani's going at it after their match, Mongolian coaches with an angry striptease, Olympic wrestling always has something doesn't it?  

[Olympian1010 7,971]

6 minutes ago, heywoodu said:

Dagestani's going at it after their match, Mongolian coaches with an angry striptease, Olympic wrestling always has something doesn't it?  

Can’t wait to see what Tokyo2020 gives us 

 

Referee wrestling an athlete? Somebody exposing someone’s weave? Athletes wrestling “Ancient Greek” style?