India National Thread

[kapil857 31]

  On 6/24/2016 at 5:27 PM, nitinsanker said:

 

@kapil857   @sameerph    @Sanjib guys - In 2012 that was the rule that the quotas belong to the country .................ISSF has laid down a rule for rio that any country  can exchange a maximum of 1 quota place only ...................

 

for example - 

 

A total of eighteen shooters were provisionally named to the Chinese team, including two double starters, at the end of Olympic trials for rifle and shooting. As per ISSF rules, China had decided to exchange one of them with the men's 50 m rifle prone spot, which was awarded to Zhao Shengbo. Hence, the remaining berth was returned to ISSF for reallocation as they cannot exchange more than 1 quota 

 

@MantaRaymarc as the shooting qualification thread host do explain

 

 

 

Expand  

There is no rule change Nitin. The quota exchange rule was valid in 2012 also. In London, we exchanged a quota in 50m rifle 3 position (i think), earned by Imran Hassan Khan, and gave it to Heena Sidhu in 10 m air pistol women. There was even a controversy as to why it was not given to Rathore in double trap. That rule is valid for the NOC exchanging the quota across an event. 

 

We did this because Gagan, who had earned a quota in 10m air rifle, was considered a better prospect than Imran in 50m 3 position as well. And, as per rules, Gagan could have earned only one quota, which he did in 10m air rifle. And if Gagan is going to London on a 10m air rifle quota, then he doesn't need a second quota to compete in 50m rifle 3 position. He could also compete in the 50m 3 pos event as long as he achieved the MQS, and as long as the limit of 2 shooters per country in every event was not exceeded. Thus, Imran's quota became superfluous and was given to Heena, just like Rajput's quota became superfluous this time and was given to Kynan (and it was officially given to Kynan, not Manavjit. As per the elaborate NRAI selection rules, despite Kynan winning the quota in trap, Manavjit narrowly pipped him at the final selection trial. Thus, if Rajput had not won the superfluous quota, it would have been Kynan missing out and not Manavjit. NRAI even officially declared that quota exchange was for Kynan, and not Manavjit). 

 

In the China case, one quota was returned because of the the double-starter situation. Gagan was our double starter - both in London and here - which allowed for the quota exchange of Imran and Rajput in the first place. But China had 2 double starters, both of which created superfluous quotas. One of those quotas could be exchanged, but one had to be returned, since according to the rules, you can only exchange one quota. If, for example, Akhil Sheoran had won the quota in 10m air rifle (which he narrowly missed in Delhi, an event I saw live), that quota too would have been superfluous and we would have had to return it.

 

None of this has anything to do with which 2 shooters India selects in 10m air rifle, where we have 2 quotas and can send anybody...but we will send apurvi and ayonika only. 

[kapil857 31]

  On 6/25/2016 at 2:43 AM, Sanjib said:

That is exactly what I feel is incorrect. What if Pooja won 2 golds in the 2 finals instead of finishing 4th, still NRAI would have sent Ayonika who did not even look close to qualifying in finals in World Cup  events both in 2015 and 2016. We are not China or US, we somehow manage to earn a very few medals. NRAI have to be realistic and give an athlete in form some chance. We saw the result of being adamant in archery.

Expand  

 

Look at it another way...instead of forcing an athlete to always be on the edge and demonstrate form, the NRAI has designed a policy whereby qualification period ends with the last official olympic qualifier...after that, you know whether you are in or out. You dont have to demonstrate form after that, as you have already proved you are the best, and you are allowed to train and work on your game and on your weaknesses, in peace, at your own pace. Just like regular people, even athletes need some stability, or job security. You can choose whatever training method suits you best so as to peak at the olympics and not at events prior to the olympics. For some athletes, that means competing at every world cup and getting medals. For others, it means being at the training range. And it is the Olympics, everyone knows the value of a medal. No extra motivation is required for any athlete to ensure that he/she trains in the best way possible.

 

It's like the board exams or an entrance exam like the IIT JEE or the CAT. At the end of the day, you just have to do well at the final exams. Many different coaching institutes will be conducting mock exams before the big day but u dont need to do well in all of them to do well at the final exam. The time before the big exam is the intense final study period and its up to every student to utilize it the best. For some, the best way to study is to take those mock tests. For others, its to be locked in ur room with ur books.

 

And we havent seen anything in archery...u dont even know that it was Champia who shot the weak arrows - neither against Brazil nor against Malaysia. And u definitely do not know that Rahul would have done better. It's not like Rahul set the world on fire, just finished a little better than Champia in qualification and lost in the first round of individual matchplay himself. Had Rahul competed and lost, some people might still be saying to as how Mangal Champia, our most experienced archer (and he is the most experienced by the way) and our individual quota winner was left out...people would be justifying the logic saying that Champia may have scored 5 points lesser than Rahul over 72 arrows but he is always best under the pressure of matchplay and olympic qualification...as demonstrated by his performance in winning the individual quota itself, and his performance at the selection trials with the olympic spot on the line.

 

One of the worst things we supporters can do when our athletes lose, is to say that those not competing were better. It always happens in cricket selection and it is happening now in olympics sports as well as people start to know the names of the athletes who were not selected. Rarely makes any sense. Archery is just a highly unpredictable sport due to short duration of the match, and losses happen. That is sport.

Edited June 25, 2016 by kapil857

[Sanjib 17]

  On 6/25/2016 at 3:23 AM, kapil857 said:

 

Look at it another way...instead of forcing an athlete to always be on the edge and demonstrate form, the NRAI has designed a policy whereby qualification period ends with the last official olympic qualifier...after that, you know whether you are in or out. You dont have to demonstrate form after that, as you have already proved you are the best, and you are allowed to train and work on your game and on your weaknesses, in peace, at your own pace. Just like regular people, even athletes need some stability, or job security. You can choose whatever training method suits you best so as to peak at the olympics and not at events prior to the olympics. For some athletes, that means competing at every world cup and getting medals. For others, it means being at the training range. And it is the Olympics, everyone knows the value of a medal. No extra motivation is required for any athlete to ensure that he/she trains in the best way possible.

 

It's like the board exams or an entrance exam like the IIT JEE or the CAT. At the end of the day, you just have to do well at the final exams. Many different coaching institutes will be conducting mock exams before the big day but u dont need to do well in all of them to do well at the final exam. The time before the big exam is the intense final study period and its up to every student to utilize it the best. For some, the best way to study is to take those mock tests. For others, its to be locked in ur room with ur books.

 

And we havent seen anything in archery...u dont even know that it was Champia who shot the weak arrows - neither against Brazil nor against Malaysia. And u definitely do not know that Rahul would have done better. It's not like Rahul set the world on fire, just finished a little better than Champia in qualification and lost in the first round of individual matchplay himself. Had Rahul competed and lost, some people might still be saying to as how Mangal Champia, our most experienced archer (and he is the most experienced by the way) and our individual quota winner was left out...people would be justifying the logic saying that Champia may have scored 5 points lesser than Rahul over 72 arrows but he is always best under the pressure of matchplay and olympic qualification...as demonstrated by his performance in winning the individual quota itself, and his performance at the selection trials with the olympic spot on the line.

 

One of the worst things we supporters can do when our athletes lose, is to say that those not competing were better. It always happens in cricket selection and it is happening now in olympics sports as well as people start to know the names of the athletes who were not selected. Rarely makes any sense. Archery is just a highly unpredictable sport due to short duration of the match, and losses happen. That is sport.

Expand  

Kapil, just a simple question, if Pooja won 2 golds in the 2 finals she qualified this year, her ranking currently I guess is 11, say would have been No.1 with 2 golds, would you have said the same thing and would NRAI still sent Ayonika, I doubt, just b coz she finished 4th the matter has not come into limelight. Ayonika did nothing apart from qualifying in Asian event in the last 1.5 years unlike Apurvi who had a gr8 2015. How do you explain China selecting Li Xuerui over Wang Shixian in London?

Edited June 25, 2016 by Sanjib

[shrikant 3]

My only question is... If ayonika has got the quota then she should participate in these events... Rather than Mudgal or Pooja ghatkar... 

[Sanjib 17]

  On 6/25/2016 at 3:50 AM, shrikant said:

My only question is... If ayonika has got the quota then she should participate in these events... Rather than Mudgal or Pooja ghatkar... 

Expand  

By that logic, Sanjeev Rajput should also have participated, didn't China choose Li Xuerui over Wang Shixian in London and what was the result. You need to pick players on current form, a number of NOC's are yet to announce their Shooting squad for Rio, they want to wait till this current world cup event.

[Sanjib 17]

  On 6/25/2016 at 3:50 AM, shrikant said:

My only question is... If ayonika has got the quota then she should participate in these events... Rather than Mudgal or Pooja ghatkar... 

Expand  

Sorry Shrikant, by "these events" you meant the these World Cup events, I thought Rio Olympics.

[shrikant 3]

  On 6/25/2016 at 4:38 AM, Sanjib said:

Sorry Shrikant, by "these events" you meant the these World Cup events, I thought Rio Olympics.

Expand  

It was regarding world cup events as I feel quota winners should be given priority

[kapil857 31]

  On 6/25/2016 at 4:42 AM, shrikant said:

It was regarding world cup events as I feel quota winners should be given priority

Expand  

 

Quota winners have been given priority for the world cups...if they wanna participate. But if they want to skip an event and focus on training, thats fine too. Ayonika didnt participate here on her own volition, not because Ghatkar and Moudgil were chosen over her... 

[kapil857 31]

  On 6/25/2016 at 3:39 AM, Sanjib said:

Kapil, just a simple question, if Pooja won 2 golds in the 2 finals she qualified this year, her ranking currently I guess is 11, say would have been No.1 with 2 golds, would you have said the same thing and would NRAI still sent Ayonika, I doubt, just b coz she finished 4th the matter has not come into limelight. Ayonika did nothing apart from qualifying in Asian event in the last 1.5 years unlike Apurvi who had a gr8 2015. How do you explain China selecting Li Xuerui over Wang Shixian in London?

Expand  

 

Yes..NRAI would have still sent Ayonika...thats the policy. The scenario you are saying was pretty close to what happened before the CWG...Jitu Rai had just set the world cup stage on fire but he still competed at the CWG only in the 50m pistol event (and won GOLD by a whopping margin of 6.9 points) whereas Nanjappa and Om Prakash competed in the 10m event and returned with just a silver from Nanjappa. Sometimes the policy works and sometimes it doesn't - nothing is perfect in this world but it definitely does have a sound logic behind it. You may feel that current form is all that should matter, but someone else, like the NRAI, may feel that stability is more important. 

 

But once the policy is made, you cant keep changing it or it means nothing. And in a country like India where there is always a lot of politics in qualitative subjective selection, a quantitative objective selection policy is one of the best decisions taken by the NRAI.

 

And remember that the current world cups are all a little low on competiton level - with most of the top olympic-qualified athletes around the world picking and choosing which events to attend and which ones to skip.

 

China's policy in badminton is the exact opposite, but then it is a different game. As compared to shooting, it is far more physical (and thus recent form is a much better indicator) and involves one-on-one competition whereas shooting is all mental with all competitors competing simultaneously (and thus may be the mental peace before the olympics is more important for the shooters). Even the end of the qualification period in badminton is just a couple of months before the games. They picked Xuerui over Shixian primarily because Xuerui had better head-to-head record over non-chinese players, mainly Saina, whereas Shixian had a bad record against Saina. Even now, they have not officially declared which 2 players will be going to Rio.

 

 And I know a lot of people in India are fascinated with world rankings but outside of racquet sports, world rankings matter little. Have always mattered little.

 

 

[Prashanth 179]

We are here debating who to send and whom not to, But have forgotten the NR created yesterday by Muhammed Anas who clocked 45.44s in 400m heats at meet in Poland to break teammate Rajiv Arokia's national record of 45.47s. Both of them are pushing each other and I hope both make the cut for Olympics. They are really doing good need to talk about these guys though they have not made the cut. The effort is truly showing even though they are not world class but pushing Indian best mark by far. Hope Milkha Flying Singh would be proud of these 2 lads.