[OFF TOPIC] Politics Thread

[Monzanator 5,111]

18 minutes ago, Olympian1010 said:

Albania, Kosovo, and Bosnia would like to disagree about the Ottoman part. (I’m a little rusty on my Balkan history, but I believe parts of Bulgaria were under Ottoman rule, or at least influence, too). In all fairness the Ottoman Empire and classic Islam were much more tolerant of Christians than Christians were of them. Western Colonization and the World Wars changed the Middle East for the worse. Europeans allowed for extremism to grow in the Middle East. I’d say their reactions to the west are fair in many ways actually.

 

Holy smokes, they don't teach you much European history in USA? Ottoman Empire was only supressed by the joined forces of Habsburg dynasty, Poland-Lithuania, Venice, Russia & Balkans at the end of the 17th century. Turkey was the common enemy that had these countries fighting on the same side (and Poland sure as heck NEVER fought together with Russia against anyone other than Ottomans). The Great Turkish War single-handedly prevented Europe from becoming a Muslim playground. Once the Ottomans were defeated, the Russian Empire rised to their subsequent power and divided Europe into Russian-German-French playground instead (with England sitting pretty on their island too).

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Turkish_War

[Olympian1010 8,297]

4 minutes ago, Monzanator said:

 

Holy smokes, they don't teach you much European history in USA? Ottoman Empire was only supressed by the joined forces of Habsburg dynasty, Poland-Lithuania, Venice, Russia & Balkans at the end of the 17th century. Turkey was the common enemy that had these countries fighting on the same side (and Poland sure as heck NEVER fought together with Russia against anyone other than Ottomans). The Great Turkish War single-handedly prevented Europe from becoming a Muslim playground. Once the Ottomans were defeated, the Russian Empire rised to their subsequent power and divided Europe into Russian-German-French playground instead (with England sitting pretty on their island too).

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Turkish_War

I’m well aware of that, but the Ottomans still held a great deal of European territory from circa 1500 to 1850. Also Poland wasn’t a country then (it was to week to defend itself during multiple partions), maybe Lithuania was, but it has lost most of its historical holdings in Poland. Also I’d say the defeat of the Moors in France did more to stop the Islamization of Europe. Also a reminder that Serbia, Bulgaria, and Romania were independent at this time and remained independent to this day. But since there seems to be this false European notion that Islam is the devils religion let’s get a few things straight. Christians lead a holy war (jihad), actually around 9 of them against Islam over 2/3 centuries, They forced them off the continent (not really a problem besides European historians always painting them as heretics and savages), they murder many in the Spanish and Greater European Inquisition (as well as Jews because heaven forbid they go a single century without someone trying to murder them all), colonized their lands, treated them as second class to this day, produced anti-Islam propaganda, and much more. I’d say that some of the Middle Eastern actions in the last century and over history are some what justified or at the very least understandable. Europeans have spent the last 1000 years driving a wedge between themselves and Islam. It’s not shocking that Muslim countries suffer from extremism and that Europe suffers from islamaphobia (as well as anti-Semetism, racism, xenophobia, misogyny, bigotry, etc.) It all comes down to how Europe has treated the rest of the world since around 100 BC. It’s not shocking that a lot of countries have problems with western culture, I don’t blame them I hate much of it myself. I just think people need a better understanding of way we disagree, so that we can at least try repair some relationships. I’m obviously a globalist, I see absolutely ZERO need for nationalism. I’m fairly disgusted by most governments and country’s currently. It probably won’t even matter since we’re all killing the planet and my generation will be the first to completely live with the consequences.

[Monzanator 5,111]

10 minutes ago, Olympian1010 said:

I’m well aware of that, but the Ottomans still held a great deal of European territory from circa 1500 to 1850. Also Poland wasn’t a country then (it was to week to defend itself during multiple partions), maybe Lithuania was, but it has lost most of its historical holdings in Poland. Also I’d say the defeat of the Moors in France did more to stop the Islamization of Europe. Also a reminder that Serbia, Bulgaria, and Romania were independent at this time and remained independent to this day. But since there seems to be this false European notion that Islam is the devils religion let’s get a few things straight. Christians lead a holy war (jihad), actually around 9 of them against Islam over 2/3 centuries, They forced them off the continent (not really a problem besides European historians always painting them as heretics and savages), they murder many in the Spanish and Greater European Inquisition (as well as Jews because heaven forbid they go a single century without someone trying to murder them all), colonized their lands, treated them as second class to this day, produced anti-Islam propaganda, and much more. I’d say that some of the Middle Eastern actions in the last century and over history are some what justified or at the very least understandable. Europeans have spent the last 1000 years driving a wedge between themselves and Islam. It’s not shocking that Muslim countries suffer from extremism and that Europe suffers from islamaphobia (as well as anti-Semetism, racism, xenophobia, misogyny, bigotry, etc.) It all comes down to how Europe has treated the rest of the world since around 100 BC. It’s not shocking that a lot of countries have problems with western culture, I don’t blame them I hate much of it myself. I just think people need a better understanding of way we disagree, so that we can at least try repair some relationships. I’m obviously a globalist, I see absolutely ZERO need for nationalism. I’m fairly disgusted by most governments and country’s currently. It probably won’t even matter since we’re all killing the planet and my generation will be the first to completely live with the consequences.

 

It's funny you say this since USA gained independence based on nationalism alone. You didn't want to be a British colony and ended locking up all Native Americans in reservations Hell, you even gave out Medals of Honor for Indian massacres and segregated people based on skin color deep into 20th century. And you want to tell me Europeans are evil while Muslims are poor victims? C'mon now!

[Olympian1010 8,297]

17 minutes ago, Monzanator said:

 

It's funny you say this since USA gained independence based on nationalism alone. You didn't want to be a British colony and ended locking up all Native Americans in reservations Hell, you even gave out Medals of Honor for Indian massacres and segregated people based on skin color deep into 20th century. And you want to tell me Europeans are evil while Muslims are poor victims? C'mon now!

All I can say is that American colonists were definitely inspired by some white people (Europe). Yes, my country spent years killing Native Americans. It was wrong and they deserve their lands back and reparations. It would propose moving reservations back to more historic lands and then promoting cultural education. I’d also like to point out that we weren’t the first to the idea of slavery. That would be the Italian and Portuguese and last time I checked those were two very European countries. I also wouldn’t say the revolution was based on nationalism and there’s a lot of evidence to support that claim. The difference between the US and Europe is that over the last century we tried to fix our mistakes (at least parts of the country have) while Europe has essentially just tried to gloss over theirs.

Edited August 2, 2019 by Olympian1010

[Monzanator 5,111]

4 minutes ago, Olympian1010 said:

All I can say is that American colonists were definitely inspired by some white people (Europe). Yes, my country spent years killing Native Americans. It was wrong and they deserve their lands back and reparations. It would propose moving reservations back to more historic lands and then promoting cultural education. I’d also like to point out that we weren’t the first to the idea of slavery. That would be the Italian and Portuguese and last time I checked those were two very European countries. I also wouldn’t say the revolution was based on nationalism and there’s a lot of evidence to support that claim. The difference between the US and Europe is that over the last century we tried to fix our mistakes (at least parts of the country have) while Europe has essentially just tried to gloss over theirs.

 

At the end of the day globalism won't work the same way communism didn't work out. There's no one magic formula that keeps everyone happy. People are different and usually dislike when someone else tries to tell them what to do, how to behave and hell, even what God should they believe in. Muslims & Christians are different cultures that will never blend like you wish. It's simply impossible. The fall of colonial empires in Europe suggests the glossing part is way off. Moreover I come from a country that has never had any colonies during its existence while USA still can't let go off Puerto Rico among others

[Olympian1010 8,297]

10 minutes ago, Monzanator said:

 

At the end of the day globalism won't work the same way communism didn't work out. There's no one magic formula that keeps everyone happy. People are different and usually dislike when someone else tries to tell them what to do, how to behave and hell, even what God should they believe in. Muslims & Christians are different cultures that will never blend like you wish. It's simply impossible. The fall of colonial empires in Europe suggests the glossing part is way off. Moreover I come from a country that has never had any colonies during its existence while USA still can't let go off Puerto Rico among others

Puerto Rico has voted against both independence and statehood multiple times. Unlike the European powers, we actually let our territories hold referendums on independence when they choose. Your country never had any colonies because it was to busy being one. Remind me who ruled Poland? Lithuania, Russia, Prussia, Italy, Austria-Hungary? I think your right globalization won’t work because there’s too many against it for foolish reasons. Muslim and Christian cultures have blended in places peacefully for centuries, but the stronger powers on sides have tried to stop it.

[heywoodu 16,460]

27 minutes ago, Olympian1010 said:

I’d also like to point out that we weren’t the first to the idea of slavery. That would be the Italian and Portuguese and last time I checked those were two very European countries.

There sure as shit was slavery very far away from Italy and Portugal before they came up with it.

[heywoodu 16,460]

Also: funny how a new law that's largely about safety concerns leads to a discussion about who did what and "they were bad, no they were bad!" from 500 years ago.

[Dunadan 1,103]

9 minutes ago, Olympian1010 said:

Remind me who ruled Poland? Lithuania, Russia, Prussia, Italy, Austria-Hungary?

 

When did Italy rule over Poland?

[Monzanator 5,111]

8 minutes ago, Olympian1010 said:

Puerto Rico has voted against both independence and statehood multiple times. Unlike the European powers, we actually let our territories hold referendums on independence when they choose. Your country never had any colonies because it was to busy being one. Remind me who ruled Poland? Lithuania, Russia, Prussia, Italy, Austria-Hungary? I think your right globalization won’t work because there’s too many against it for foolish reasons. Muslim and Christian cultures have blended in places peacefully for centuries, but the stronger powers on sides have tried to stop it.

 

And Portugal granted Capo Verde independence even though it was an inhabited island when they "conquered" it

 

Lithuania never ruled Poland, our young queen needed to get married and a Lithuanian was chosen as her husband hence he became King. Austria-Hungary was formed long after Poland lost it's independence. Yes, we had Poles, Czechs, Hungarians, Swedes, Saxons & French as Kings.

 

It's the classic bloodline issue that falls across every single Kingdom in Europe. The most powerful Russian Empress was a German, the current English monarchy are Germans too (House of Windsor my ass, the Anglo-Saxons don't rule England since 1066).