Judo IJF World Championships 2018

[phelps 7,678]

2 minuti fa, LDOG ha scritto:

 

There is also the bunch of south americans and north americans you have in several team sports... I recall that your opinion about that is that they are Italian "ethnically", but still, it's feeding from systems of other countries.

 

yeah, actually I didn't even think about them...

in any case, you're explained what the situation is...North and South Americans have Italian blood, so to me they are entitled to be named "Italians" a lot more than those 2nd/3rd generation immigrants, who often don't have anything to share with our culture and traditions (I know this opinion is not well considered here, but that's the pure truth...and most Italian people think the same, even if many don't want to say it publicly because of this plague of "politically correct")...

[thepharoah 2,405]

28 minutes ago, phelps said:

 

I don't think so...

the only atheltes we're trying to "buy" (meaning that we would like to naturalize them despite their connection to Italy is not that strong...because we don't buy anybody literally, as they do in some other Countries) are some wrestlers (since this sport is basically dead here in Italy)...

and actually, even Chamizo decided to compete for Italy with full permission of Cuban authorities after coming to live in Italy following his marriage...

all those not purely Italian names nowadays you can see in our teams are just second/third generation guys grown up, raised and trained (often also already born) in our Nation just because their parents/grandparents decided to come to live here...

Well i think many of these countries have the same reason also including Qatar , talking about the desire of abandon to the country by some athletes , overall noone force those athletes to leave their countries and travel to other countries and overall also i think the main reason that makes anyone in life in general leaves his/her country forever is money at 1st so i don't think there're some countries that buy and others who offer their services  it just varies from country to another on no. of naturalized athletes 

[NearPup 3,051]

5 hours ago, AlFHg said:

I don't know why, but I see it on the contrary for Japanese, like they get destroyed by the home pressure. It's just my sensation, obviously. Personally  I think that Japan, out of 15 events, will win 9-10, including the team. But I won't be disappointed, if that is not going to happen.

Japan way over-performed at Nagano 1998 so I'm not too worried for them.

[DaniSRB 899]

2 hours ago, phelps said:

 

I don't think so...

the only atheltes we're trying to "buy" (meaning that we would like to naturalize them despite their connection to Italy is not that strong...because we don't buy anybody literally, as they do in some other Countries) are some wrestlers (since this sport is basically dead here in Italy)...

and actually, even Chamizo decided to compete for Italy with full permission of Cuban authorities after coming to live in Italy following his marriage...

all those not purely Italian names nowadays you can see in our teams are just second/third generation guys grown up, raised and trained (often also already born) in our Nation just because their parents/grandparents decided to come to live here...

how about Bodegas, Gullermo Molina, or eventually Volarevic?

 

of course they are not literally bought.......but is that fair to change nt since their nts are less competitive or don't have place in own nt?

Edited September 23, 2018 by DaniSRB

[thiago_simoes 1,423]

2 horas atrás, phelps disse:

 

North and South Americans have Italian blood, so to me they are entitled to be named "Italians" a lot more than those 2nd/3rd generation immigrants, who often don't have anything to share with our culture and traditions (I know this opinion is not well considered here, but that's the pure truth...and most Italian people think the same, even if many don't want to say it publicly because of this plague of "politically correct")...

There are two thoughts I'd like to share about this opinion:

1) Having an Italian surname doesn't really make anyone related to the culture and traditions of Italy, at least not if they simply don't care about it;

2) Of course I understand you can only speak for yourself (i.e., you consider how Italian people see people from other parts of the world with an Italian surname), but I can't help but wonder about how those people with Italian surnames feel about their origins.

I will try to summarize these points with my own story here: I have three surnames -- one from Spanish origins, one from Portuguese origins and one "generic" surname I was told was given by the church in the 1600s-1700s to people who were poor and did not know about their origins. So, I know that my father's family comes from Europe (Spain and Portugal) but my mother's surname indicates nothing about her family's origin. When I was a child, I was told stories of one of my great-grandmothers being Dutch and another one being a native Brazilian (indigenous) person. One of my great-grandfathers was a black man, I'm sure, since I'm a mixed-race person with dark skin, so I have African origins too.

Now, I had absolutely no contact with Spanish and Portuguese customs, and even if I have European surnames, I don't care in the slightest about Spanish/Portuguese culture. I know my example is about Spain and Portugal, but there are many examples in Brazil about people with Italian surnames -- so, it's funny to see that there are still people in Italy who care about surnames and whatnot, since in Brazil most of us couldn't care less, to be honest. Of course there are people who try to find about their origins so they can try to earn an European passport and live in Europe, but we're talking about 1-2% of the people who have European surnames really caring about their origins here.

[LDOG 2,418]

hace 34 minutos, thiago_simoes said:

Now, I had absolutely no contact with Spanish and Portuguese customs, and even if I have European surnames, I don't care in the slightest about Spanish/Portuguese culture. I know my example is about Spain and Portugal, but there are many examples in Brazil about people with Italian surnames -- so, it's funny to see that there are still people in Italy who care about surnames and whatnot, since in Brazil most of us couldn't care less, to be honest. Of course there are people who try to find about their origins so they can try to earn an European passport and live in Europe, but we're talking about 1-2% of the people who have European surnames really caring about their origins here.

 

Well, in my country at least I think there are people very proud about their heritage, but in the case of argentinians that have represented Spain or Italy in the past (or present), I think it's mostly about either lack of opportunity to improve in sports where Argentina is weak or, on the contrary, lack of space in sports in which argentina is good. 

 

Ps. What I find incredible about Italian law is that for example I have Italian  citizenship despite that I have never set a foot in Italy and that I don't even speak italian, while someone like Mario Balotelli (who is absolutely italian) didn't get it until he turned 18 (!).

 

Edited September 23, 2018 by LDOG

[phelps 7,678]

11 ore fa, DaniSRB ha scritto:

how about Bodegas, Gullermo Molina, or eventually Volarevic?

 

of course they are not literally bought.......but is that fair to change nt since their nts are less competitive or don't have place in own nt?

 

Bodegas I think established himself in Italy well before getting our citizenship...

Molina is surely "one of those cases" (but you can't say we bought him like Gulf Countries usually do...we never made him an offer that involved money, other benefits nor social status in exchage of his participation to our NT)

Volarevic...well, I don't know his personal history, so I just can't say anything about him...

 

and yes, it's fair to say that in some circumstance our foreign-born players have made their choices based on their sport and/or economical convenience (and I don't see anything wrong with that until it's a man's choice and not a Country's policy of searching, convincing and enrolling people who don't have anything to do with that same Nation...there's a big difference in those 2 situations)...

[heywoodu 15,145]

Van Dijke against Alvear for a place in the quarterfinals, that's gonna be tough  

 

Van 't End is up against German Trippel for a quarterfinal spot.

[phelps 7,678]

10 ore fa, thiago_simoes ha scritto:

There are two thoughts I'd like to share about this opinion:

1) Having an Italian surname doesn't really make anyone related to the culture and traditions of Italy, at least not if they simply don't care about it;

2) Of course I understand you can only speak for yourself (i.e., you consider how Italian people see people from other parts of the world with an Italian surname), but I can't help but wonder about how those people with Italian surnames feel about their origins.

I will try to summarize these points with my own story here: I have three surnames -- one from Spanish origins, one from Portuguese origins and one "generic" surname I was told was given by the church in the 1600s-1700s to people who were poor and did not know about their origins. So, I know that my father's family comes from Europe (Spain and Portugal) but my mother's surname indicates nothing about her family's origin. When I was a child, I was told stories of one of my great-grandmothers being Dutch and another one being a native Brazilian (indigenous) person. One of my great-grandfathers was a black man, I'm sure, since I'm a mixed-race person with dark skin, so I have African origins too.

Now, I had absolutely no contact with Spanish and Portuguese customs, and even if I have European surnames, I don't care in the slightest about Spanish/Portuguese culture. I know my example is about Spain and Portugal, but there are many examples in Brazil about people with Italian surnames -- so, it's funny to see that there are still people in Italy who care about surnames and whatnot, since in Brazil most of us couldn't care less, to be honest. Of course there are people who try to find about their origins so they can try to earn an European passport and live in Europe, but we're talking about 1-2% of the people who have European surnames really caring about their origins here.

 

obviously...but I was speaking of those people who want to take advantage of their Italian heritage for some reason (here we talk about sport, but there are also different motivations)...

if someone (the majority of people, I guess) doesn't care about this thing (or, even worse, are ashamed/annoyed by their origin), there's not even need to talk about that...

 

p.s. here in Italy this theme is considered quite important by the majority of people and there's harsh and everlasting debate about giving up our citizenship by "iure solis" (which is not the case at the moment) and/or by "iure sanguinis" (which is the current working rule -and apart from the other rules like marriage or long terms residence or "special merits", which are not part of the debate)...

 

[heywoodu 15,145]

11 hours ago, Nate River said:

Japan way over-performed at Nagano 1998 so I'm not too worried for them.

Then again, they didn't have the Japanese (Olympic) sport in those Games, like they will have in 2020