Olympics and World Cup qualifying systems

[phelps 7,862]

  On 10/18/2022 at 6:51 PM, NaBUru38 said:

I disagree. Let's keep with volleyball.

 

Th 2022 Men's World Cup had 9 European teams in the top 16. The 2022 Women's World Cup had 4 European teams in the top 8. The World Rankings has 6 European men's teams and 7 European women's teams in the respective top 12.

 

It would be perfectly reasonable that the the Olympic volleyball tournament have the host, the previous champion, 3 European teams, 2 Americas teams, 2 Asian teams and 1 African team, and 2 world repechage teams. This would guarantee that any of the 200+ countries can qualify.

 

Instead, the Olympic qualifiers are restricted to the top 25 teams in the world rankings. That's absolutely ridiculous! Teams like Peru and Spain have literally no opportunity.

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I agree that we disagree.

 

Frankly, having an African team (especially among the women) doesn't add anything to the tournament...actually, it does add an unwatchable game per day and makes the group less competitive (only 5 teams competing for 4 QTFs spots).

 

the same, if you have a Pan-American team other than USA, BRA and ARG or Asian teams other than JPN and IRI (men) or JPN and CHN, sometimes but not regularly KOR (women).

 

it's not my fault (or any strong team's fault) if most competitive teams come from the same zone.

 

I just want to watch a tournament with good games and strong teams only. point.

 

and as I wrote before, it's only my personal need. I know that all the athletes in the world put their max effort in what they do and they would deserve a chance.

 

But not at the expense of the quality of the Olympic tournament.

[phelps 7,862]

  On 10/18/2022 at 2:08 PM, dodge said:

Rowing is the wrong sport to use as only the Lightweight Doubles (to bring more countries outside of the power houses in) and the Singles (much like the 100m in athletics for representation) use continental qualifiers

 

10 of the 14 events don't use continental qualifiers at all.. It's world championship and world qualifiers only.

 

So even though you cite them as a problem sport, they're acting in a way that you're advocating. Oh and Uruguay qualified through the continental route for Mens lightweight double and they made the final.

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OK, replace Rowing with all team sports, with Fencing, Taekwondo, Wrestling (Karate, but it's no longer an Olympic sport) and all those events with 10/12/16 max places in a world with at least 20/30 competitive teams (and 50+ athletes capable of going close to a medal in the individual sports).

 

the point is that we can't take quota places away from athletes capable of winning a medal and replace them with people competing only according to the De Coubertin's spirit.

 

I have nothing against universality, but, as I wrote before, not at the expense of the quality of an Olympic event.

 

Sports like Athletics, Swimming, Triathlon, Shooting, Tennis, Table Tennis, Sailing (some classes only), the same Rowing (single and double sculls)...even the Equestrian disciplines...they can all have even 20% of the starting field below the average and they don't lose anything, but you just can't have a team event already knowing the top 4 out of 6 in each group of the preliminary round because you only have 8 good teams out of 12 (or an individual sport where you already know the medallists in advance because half the participants are not on the same level of the opponents)...you just make the most of the tournament useless.

[Vektor 3,326]

 

There's a very easy fix for fencing for example: a continent should only be eligible for a spot if at least one nation from that continent is inside the Top12 on the ranking (not Top16). And more importantly: continental spots should be allocated BEFORE any world quotas.

 

Here's how this changes things for 2020:

 

Men's foil original quotas:                

 

Men's foil fixed quotas:                

 

There you have it, the Top8 best nations qualified. Same would be true in most cases. 

 

Women's sabre original quotas:                

 

Women's sabre fixed quotas:                

 

Once again, the Top8 qualifies instead of China who only made it in due to South Korea reaching the Top4 and also instead of a very weak Tunisia. 

[dodge 1,028]

  On 10/18/2022 at 7:32 PM, phelps said:

OK, replace Rowing with all team sports, with Fencing, Taekwondo, Wrestling (Karate, but it's no longer an Olympic sport) and all those events with 10/12/16 max places in a world with at least 20/30 competitive teams (and 50+ athletes capable of going close to a medal in the individual sports).

 

the point is that we can't take quota places away from athletes capable of winning a medal and replace them with people competing only according to the De Coubertin's spirit.

 

I have nothing against universality, but, as I wrote before, not at the expense of the quality of an Olympic event.

 

Sports like Athletics, Swimming, Triathlon, Shooting, Tennis, Table Tennis, Sailing (some classes only), the same Rowing (single and double sculls)...even the Equestrian disciplines...they can all have even 20% of the starting field below the average and they don't lose anything, but you just can't have a team event already knowing the top 4 out of 6 in each group of the preliminary round because you only have 8 good teams out of 12 (or an individual sport where you already know the medallists in advance because half the participants are not on the same level of the opponents)...you just make the most of the tournament useless.

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My point is that there are plenty of chances for "the best" to qualify so if they don't, they can't really be considered the best.  Even Taekwondo with it's limited fields still produced medalists from Europe, Asia, Africa, the Americas. The African medalists all came through the continental qualifier. Can't see how that's a bad thing.

 

Wrestling, a sport I've no interest in so won't claim to be an expert in, gave individuals 3 chances to get in? World champs, continental champs and then a world qualifier? I think that's enough chances for any athlete who thinks they can medal

 

I know women's football is often held up as a bad example (only 3 European teams) but for the sport, it's clearly better to have a team from Africa in there. Zambia wouldn't have got in last time but they finished 3rd in their group and hopefully that sort of stuff can help develop the team. There could be no suggestion of having a world cup without an African team, so why should there be an Olympics without one?

 

I don't think either of us will change our minds on this, but I@m happy to see as many nations compete in as many sports as possible. I don't think any medal winners will ever feel their medal is devalued in any way

[JoshMartini007 2,570]

To be fair, events with less than 12 entrants should not have continental quotas. At that point you are causing top entrants to miss out.

 

Though if I was in charge I wouldn't have any events with less than 12 competitors. If your event doesn't have at least 12 competitive nations then maybe it doesn't deserve to be in the Olympics (yes I understand that for some events the low number of entrants is due to athlete quota limitations, but I'd also increase the athlete quotas to account for that).

Edited October 19, 2022 by JoshMartini007

[phelps 7,862]

  On 10/19/2022 at 3:45 PM, JoshMartini007 said:

To be fair, events with less than 12 entrants should not have continental quotas. At that point you are causing top entrants to miss out.

 

Though if I was in charge I wouldn't have any events with less than 12 competitors. If your event doesn't have at least 12 competitive nations then maybe it doesn't deserve to be in the Olympics (yes I understand that for some events the low number of entrants is due to athlete quota limitations, but I'd also increase the athlete quotas to account for that).

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that's the main point 

 

my limit is 16...if there are not enough competitive* entries, that sport doesn't deserve to be in the Olympic program.

 

*competitive doesn't necesarily mean medal contender, though...just having the chance to play even against every other opponent.

 

after this first cutpoint and established that no event can have less than 16 entries (12 for team sports, where diversity must be subject to competitiveness too), then everything can be adjusted to have both diversity and a competitive field.

[dodge 1,028]

It's not the sport's fault that 12 teams get in ahead of 16. I'm sure football would love to have 16 for example. 

 

In rowing, there were events with only 7 in.  I'm sure World Rowing would prefer that to 16 in the fours or whatever. 

[NaBUru38 208]

  On 10/18/2022 at 7:19 PM, phelps said:

Frankly, having an African team (especially among the women) doesn't add anything to the tournament...actually, it does add an unwatchable game per day and makes the group less competitive (only 5 teams competing for 4 QTFs spots).

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The Olympic volleyball tournament already had an African spot and it still does. That's not my complaint.

 

My complaint is that all teams should have a chance of qualifying, even if it takes five rounds over six years.

[LDOG 2,432]

Tbf with team sports, it's only volleyball and water polo that have that problem, the rest are perfectly fine as they are (in the sense that all have at least one competitive enough team per continent). 

 

Women's football tournament is still not ideally shaped but since football is such a popular sport and women's game is evolving fast I'm sure even the most uncompetitive confederations will improve drastically in the next few cycles. 

Edited October 21, 2022 by LDOG