Men's Football UEFA European Championship 2020

[LDOG 2,468]

4 minutes ago, Vektor said:

Jesus, you don't even understand what the word "political" means. I will help you: no, it doesn't only cover geopolitical conflicts. Disagreements between countries can't just be only about territories. It can be about ideologies. And the last I checked the world wasn't exactly a place where every countries agrees on certain social issues.

 

Now, let's say that we allow the pride flag in. Do we also allow for those countries who view same-sex activity as a criminal act to burn the pride flag at the start of the match? Both are, you know, political ideologies that either view queer people as equal or as people who shouldn't even exist. Both types of countries are part of the international sports community, and also many others who are in between the two in terms on where they stand on this issue. But here's a bright idea: maybe international sport events aren't the best place to decide what ideologies are the superior. 

Sorry, does EU or Uefa (both of which Hungary is part of) have an official stance on gay rights or not?

 

Also, what would exactly be "standing in between" on this matter?

[Monzanator 4,768]

6 minutes ago, LDOG said:

Sorry, does EU or Uefa (both of which Hungary is part of) have an official stance on gay rights or not?

 

Also, what would exactly be "standing in between" on this matter?

 

If you're interested you might read this PR masterpiece. They have their asses covered from PR stand point.

 

https://www.uefa.com/MultimediaFiles/Download/uefaorg/Respect/02/61/62/38/2616238_DOWNLOAD.pdf

[Vektor 3,326]

27 minutes ago, LDOG said:

Sorry, does EU or Uefa (both of which Hungary is part of) have an official stance on gay rights or not?

 

Also, what would exactly be "standing in between" on this matter?

As far as I know UEFA had that Respect campaign which pretty much everyone can get behind as it's a "watered down" anti-racism stance without bringing any political movements into the sport like BLM. But that was during the 2000s / early 2010s, not sure what's the deal now. The EU's official stance is that all member states should respect European values, but new member states such as Hungary and Poland clearly disagree with the others on what those values are. 

 

By in between I meant that Hungary obviously doesn't view same-sex activity as a criminal act and also has civil union for queer couples, but no marriage, so they don't have the same rights as straight people. What all the fuss is about now is that Orbán has decided is that the parents should have full control over how much their children learn about LGBT people. As far as public education goes this doesn't change much, I think there were already no mention of queer people during sex ed classes as teachers couldn't be bothered to make the extra effort. The real change is that technically TV networks can be fined if they broadcast LGBT content without permission, but the law is so vague that nobody actually knows how this will work in practice, not even Orbán himself because he couldn't give less shit about law itself, it's all just an act to hide corruption and to split the opposition.  

[OlympicsFan 860]

1 hour ago, Monzanator said:

 

Germany is the place where communism was born after all so it's your country's fault anyway And yes, in communism every person was supposed to be equal. Boy, did that prove to be wrong or what! 

Not sure what you mean ... Karl Marx spent most of his live in Paris/London ...

[OlympicsFan 860]

1 hour ago, LDOG said:

A) every discussion about any aspect of human society is political.

 

B) Linking "communism" to any progressive causes is typical conservative nonsense. The reverse of a liberal calling anything conservative "facist". 

In some way yes, but asking people not to discriminate against other people isn‘t political, it is about common decency. If certain countries see that as a personal attack, then it is their problem.

[OlympicsFan 860]

2 hours ago, Vektor said:

Jesus, you don't even understand what the word "political" means. I will help you: no, it doesn't only cover geopolitical conflicts. Disagreements between countries can't just be only about territories. It can be about ideologies. And the last I checked the world wasn't exactly a place where every countries agrees on certain social issues.

 

Now, let's say that we allow the pride flag in. Do we also allow for those countries who view same-sex activity as a criminal act to burn the pride flag at the start of the match? Both are, you know, political ideologies that either view queer people as equal or as people who shouldn't even exist. Both types of countries are part of the international sports community, and also many others who are in between the two in terms on where they stand on this issue. But here's a bright idea: maybe international sport events aren't the best place to decide what ideologies are the superior. 

And when exactly did it become a disagreement between countries? Last time I checked Germany as a country wasn’t doing anything here, but maybe I missed something and Manuel Neuer became the spokesperson of the German government ...

 

This is about people asking other people not to discriminate against certain people. If certain countries want to see it as a personal attack, then it is their problem. If those countries don’t feel addressed, then they should have no problem to ignore it, but for some reason those countries don’t seem to be able to do that. When German players want to show their support for people of certain sexual orientations, then it isn’t political, but when Germany asks Hungary do behave a certain way in that matter, then it is political.

 

Also: Saying that certain people shouldn’t exist isn’t an ideology, it is criminal. 

[Vektor 3,326]

6 hours ago, OlympicsFan said:

And when exactly did it become a disagreement between countries? Last time I checked Germany as a country wasn’t doing anything here, but maybe I missed something and Manuel Neuer became the spokesperson of the German government ...

 

This is about people asking other people not to discriminate against certain people. If certain countries want to see it as a personal attack, then it is their problem. If those countries don’t feel addressed, then they should have no problem to ignore it, but for some reason those countries don’t seem to be able to do that. When German players want to show their support for people of certain sexual orientations, then it isn’t political, but when Germany asks Hungary do behave a certain way in that matter, then it is political.

 

Also: Saying that certain people shouldn’t exist isn’t an ideology, it is criminal. 

Let me guess, if the arena will be in rainbow colors, that will be Munich as a city doing something, not Germany right? You are hopeless, the perfect example of arrogant people on the West who feel that they know everything and they are better because they are winning a moral superiority contest that only exist in their head. Your arguments boil down to "our political activism is good, therefore it's not political and should be allowed at international sport events". Pure nonsense. 

[Vektor 3,326]

7 hours ago, OlympicsFan said:

In some way yes, but asking people not to discriminate against other people isn‘t political, it is about common decency. If certain countries see that as a personal attack, then it is their problem.

"common decency"

 

That's where the problem is, you think that Western Europe and the US are the center of the world. Is it decent? Arguable, the view on it varies depening on where you live. Is it common? It's certainly not everywhere in the world. Personally I am on side of people who support the cause, but this entire issue is up for political debate. And those debate shouldn't be had at an international sport event. The last time people let politics take center stage at international sport events, it destroyed two Summer Olympic Games. 

[OlympicsFan 860]

1 hour ago, Vektor said:

Let me guess, if the arena will be in rainbow colors, that will be Munich as a city doing something, not Germany right? You are hopeless, the perfect example of arrogant people on the West who feel that they know everything and they are better because they are winning a moral superiority contest that only exist in their head. Your arguments boil down to "our political activism is good, therefore it's not political and should be allowed at international sport events". Pure nonsense. 

I see, you just want to have your beliefs confirmed. Just to clarify a few things (in case you are willing to reconsider your position):

- It might surprise you to hear the mayor of Munich makes its own decision and he doesn’t even belong to the party that governs Bavaria. I wouldn’t be surprise to see a Hungarian person thinking that one party determines everything, but if I remember correctly you said something a while ago about the mayor of Budapest having beef with Orban, so I am bit surprised to hear the can’t fathom the idea of the mayor of a city having his own mind. Also if you think that this is somehow determined by Merkel or other higher-ups, it would be nice to see proof (which is normally what you do in a discussion of you make a claim like that).

- Did you even read my comment? I never claimed moral superiority, I even said that western countries often/usually don’t take their own values very seriously, since they usually aren’t willing to pay for it. Often they just like to tell themselves that they are morally pure to ease their conscience. I also said that certain societies just have completely different values and there is no point in trying to impose your values on them. If people in those countries want to change something it is up to them and it is up to other countries not to be in bed with those countries if they don’t share their values.

[Agger 1,700]

45 minutes ago, Vektor said:

"common decency"

 

That's where the problem is, you think that Western Europe and the US are the center of the world. Is it decent? Arguable, the view on it varies depening on where you live. Is it common? It's certainly not everywhere in the world. Personally I am on side of people who support the cause, but this entire issue is up for political debate. And those debate shouldn't be had at an international sport event. The last time people let politics take center stage at international sport events, it destroyed two Summer Olympic Games. 

It is common decency to respect people no matter their race, religion, sexuality, political views (etc.) as long as they don't work towards taking away other people's rights. 

Politics is central in sports. As sad as it may be there is no changing that. Using sports for soft power wasn't left in the 30s, it's still used. Meanwhile it's also a stage for homophobia and sexism. We even still hear homophobic shouts on Danish football stadiums. That does make some homosexuals feel uneasy about going to sports (and some women feel the same). That's a problem that's more important than sports!