Football 2023 Discussion Thread

[Monzanator 5,111]

Word is Hansi Flick has been fired as NT manager. What an utter disaster this has been but the problem clearly lies with the players available IMO. Germany went ahead of the curve with development in the 2000s which allowed them to cash in for the 2014 World Cup but the world has changed since then and Germany has been clearly left behind.

[Roamingrover86 968]

53 minutes ago, Monzanator said:

Word is Hansi Flick has been fired as NT manager. What an utter disaster this has been but the problem clearly lies with the players available IMO. Germany went ahead of the curve with development in the 2000s which allowed them to cash in for the 2014 World Cup but the world has changed since then and Germany has been clearly left behind.

If that is the case, you would have say that is the right decision. Absolutely the players must take responsibility but there must be something wring with his approach and tactics . These players are playing for some of the top clubs in europe and performing at the highest level.  will turn it around, they have done it before & will do it again. 

[Monzanator 5,111]

It's a lenghty problem to fix. Apparently Nagelsmann will come to save the day now but in reality the German NT doesn't even the depth available to challenge for major trophies anymore. Leroy Sane hasn't developed into a world class player whatsoever and we all know Werner/Havertz are not there either. It's almost as bad as the late 90s/early 00s when the team was pulled by Ulf Kirsten in his mid 30s and Carsten Jancker (before Miroslav Klose emerged).

[OlympicsFan 860]

3 hours ago, Monzanator said:

Word is Hansi Flick has been fired as NT manager. What an utter disaster this has been but the problem clearly lies with the players available IMO. Germany went ahead of the curve with development in the 2000s which allowed them to cash in for the 2014 World Cup but the world has changed since then and Germany has been clearly left behind.

The quality obviously isn't the problem, but maybe the mentality/self-awareness of the top players. It is extremely easy to form a successful national team, but german officials are completely resistant to learning. Germany until 2014 + Morocco/Argentina/Croatia last year + Italy at the 2020 european championships + the german basketball team at the world cup this year have shown what it takes:

Mentality (over quality)

Chemistry

Great coach

 

Germany needs to get an experienced coach and then chose players with the right character and allow them to build chemistry. National teams always have very little time to train/play together, so when a team (like Italy at the 2020 european championships for example) with a great coach allows players to build chemistry, they almost always outperform teams that have superior individual talent, but not as much chemistry. France was lightyears ahead of all other teams in terms of individual talent at the 2022 football world cup, but the other teams made up for it elsewhere.

 

Edit: Two important factors i forgot:

- Players should be in game shape -> You probably shouldn't play guys that don't get a lot of playing time for their clubs

- There are more club games every season, so many of the stars are usually "burned out" by the time the national team competitions start

-> It can be an advantage to select players that didn't play insane amounts of matches for their clubs (clubs that go far in cup competitions)

 

 

Edited September 10, 2023 by OlympicsFan

[OlympicsFan 860]

1 minute ago, Monzanator said:

It's a lenghty problem to fix. Apparently Nagelsmann will come to save the day now but in reality the German NT doesn't even the depth available to challenge for major trophies anymore. Leroy Sane hasn't developed into a world class player whatsoever and we all know Werner/Havertz are not there either. It's almost as bad as the late 90s/early 00s when the team was pulled by Ulf Kirsten in his mid 30s and Carsten Jancker (before Miroslav Klose emerged).

Extremely weird take. Argentina just won the world cup with grandpa Messi and a bunch of role players. Morroco and Croatia also did a lot better than Germany despite having inferior talent. Same goes for Italy at the 2020 european championships. Germany still has Ter Stegen, Rüdiger, Kimmich, Goretzka, Gündogan, Musiala, Sane, Gnabry, Havertz (and Wirtz), who are all playing for top 10 clubs. Argentina/Croatia/Morocco in 2022 or Italy at the 2020 european championships all didn't have that.

[OlympicsFan 860]

1 hour ago, Monzanator said:

Word is Hansi Flick has been fired as NT manager. What an utter disaster this has been but the problem clearly lies with the players available IMO. Germany went ahead of the curve with development in the 2000s which allowed them to cash in for the 2014 World Cup but the world has changed since then and Germany has been clearly left behind.

Germany uses the same system in pretty much all sports and it shows that it isn't really working anymore. Germany doesn't have an infinite amount of talents across all sports and can't continue to assume that there will always be enough talent coming through no matter how bad they are at maximizing the potential of every single athlete. Germany can learn a lot from smaller countries. Also german football has the problem that talents don't get enough playing time at the highest level, instead clubs just buy talents from France or England. Another problem is that Germany focuses too much on physicality and tactics from a very young age and the talents don't get enough touches and therefore doesn't have the same technical level as players from France or England. It isn't a coincidence that the best german player (Musiala) was trained in England for most of his youth. It is also interesting to look at the number of medals that West Germany won and compare it to the number of medals that East Germany won, despite having a much smaller population. Obviously doping was a factor, but sadly after reunification officials from West Germany completely ignored everything that East Germany did right (like having a much better scouting system).

[LDOG 2,477]

The lack of quality in defense is appalling.  

  

Even the only good defender (Rudiger) looked like a scarecrow in the 3rd goal.   

  

But maybe they were trying to get the coach fired, who knows.

[Roamingrover86 968]

Its official now. 
 

  Rudi Voller to manage the team vs 

[Monzanator 5,111]

1 hour ago, OlympicsFan said:

Extremely weird take. Argentina just won the world cup with grandpa Messi and a bunch of role players. Morroco and Croatia also did a lot better than Germany despite having inferior talent. Same goes for Italy at the 2020 european championships. Germany still has Ter Stegen, Rüdiger, Kimmich, Goretzka, Gündogan, Musiala, Sane, Gnabry, Havertz (and Wirtz), who are all playing for top 10 clubs. Argentina/Croatia/Morocco in 2022 or Italy at the 2020 european championships all didn't have that.

Germany usually had its star players and they did it their own way Right now they have nobody and I mean nobody. Sane is nowhere near being a world class player in the NT team.

 

Btw, it's really rock bottom if you have to bring up Morocco of all countries to validate whatever Germany should be doing in football

[OlympicsFan 860]

5 hours ago, Monzanator said:

Germany usually had its star players and they did it their own way Right now they have nobody and I mean nobody. Sane is nowhere near being a world class player in the NT team.

 

Btw, it's really rock bottom if you have to bring up Morocco of all countries to validate whatever Germany should be doing in football

Good god ...

 

You said that the main reason was the lack of quality and i brought up Morroco + Argentina (current world champion) + Croatia (finished 3rd at the world cup) to prove that you can easily contend for the title or at least make the semifinal with less quality than Germany has. When you say something like "Germany usually had its star players ..." i have to assume that you are either trying to troll or just have zero understanding of german football and still somehow feel qualified to give your opinion. Germany pretty much never had the most amount of talent, they always relied on "german mentality" and great teamwork. When they reached the final in 2002 or 3rd place in 2006 they had a bunch of nobodies that outperformed teams with tons of stars (France, Brazil, England, Portugal).

 

The players that started the last world cup final for Argentina played for the following clubs:

2 x Benfica

2 x Atletico

Brighton

Lyon

Aston Villa

Juventus

Tottenham

City (Alvarez was mostly a bench player for City if i remember correctly)

PSG

 

Only 2 of their starting players played for top 10 clubs and one of them (Alvarez) wasn't even a starter (if i remember correctly).

 

The players that started the 3rd place match for Croatia at the last world cup played for the following clubs:

3 x Zagreb

Bayern (Stanisic was lightyears away from being a regular for Bayern)

Leipzig

Tottenham

Rennes

Chelsea

Real

Hoffenheim

Split

 

Only Gvardiol, Modric and Kovacic would have (maybe, not sure if Kovacic would have started over guys like Kimmich/Goretzka/Gündogan) started for Germany.

 

Edited September 10, 2023 by Sindo