AIN athletes qualification for Paris 2024 Olympic Games and reallocation of quotas [post#1 updated 15.07]

[Rafa Maciel 1,594]

33 minutes ago, Illya said:

Okay, but here I found something in this document 

14.1.4.b - Junior athletes can compete in a maximum of two (2) team boat events in the U23 age group.

So at junior level C2 is a team boat event and on senior is not? I don't understand why 

Don't think that's the correct interpretation of what the rule means - irrespective of the age-group, the C2 class is an individual event under the ICF rules.

 

According to 14.1.4.b, an under-23 athlete can only compete in 2 team boat events - but that doesn't change the definition of what a team event is under the regulations i.e. that a team comprises of 2 or more boats as opposed to 2 or more athletes. 

 

It's difficult because I can't actually find any details of team events at ICF sprint regattas - easier to see it in the slalom events where there are team events comprising 3 individual boats. 

 

Ultimately I think the issue has been brought about by the fact that the federations have cobbled together compromise solutions that don't really make sense when they are pulled apart and don't satisfy either side. 

Edited May 31 by Rafa Maciel

[avlar 372]

53 minutes ago, Rafa Maciel said:

I get why people are making this argument - applying a strict definition of the term 'team' - but that wasn't what the IOC did. In their decision, the IOC did not define what constitutes a 'team' and instead delegated that responsibility to the international federations:

 

Source: Q&A regarding the participation of athletes with a Russian or Belarusian passport in international competitions (olympics.com)

 

So, the question of what constitutes a team in canoeing will be determined by reference to the ICF Canoe Sprint Competition Rules 2023 v3.3:

 

 

Source: 2023_icf_canoe_sprint_competition_rules_with_8-lane_allocation_tables_1_v3_update.pdf (canoeicf.com)

 

I appreciate that this is not a popular opinion on this thread, but on the basis of the above, I don't see any reason why they would not be eligible for the quota in the C2 event. I'd also say that this approach - allowing crews of 1 or 2 athletes - is the same approach taken by World Rowing at last year's World Champs where Russia/Belarussian athletes were allowed to compete in the single and pair events. It will also be the same approach taken by the ITF when they inevitably allow Russian/Belarussian doubles to take part in the tennis tournament. 

I understand the logic your arguments but these recommendations were issued by the IOC for other international federations. So they may follow them in their way. But these rules were not designed for the Olympics itself.

 

The concept of russian athletes participation appeared later and they were marked

not Authorized Neutral Athletes (as for example FIG marks them)

but Individual Neutral Athletes

 

 

[avlar 372]

5 minutes ago, Rafa Maciel said:

Don't think that's the correct interpretation of what the rule means - irrespective of the age-group, the C2 class is an individual event under the ICF rules.

 

According to 14.1.4.b, an under-23 athlete can only compete in 2 team boat events - but that doesn't change the definition of what a team event is under the regulations i.e. that a team comprises of 2 or more boats as opposed to 2 or more athletes. 

 

It's difficult because I can't actually find any details of team events at ICF sprint regattas - easier to see it in the slalom events where there are team events comprising 3 individual boats. 

They had them several years ago - there were relays.

[Jur 683]

1 hour ago, Rafa Maciel said:

I appreciate that this is not a popular opinion on this thread, but on the basis of the above, I don't see any reason why they would not be eligible for the quota in the C2 event. I'd also say that this approach - allowing crews of 1 or 2 athletes - is the same approach taken by World Rowing at last year's World Champs where Russia/Belarussian athletes were allowed to compete in the single and pair events. It will also be the same approach taken by the ITF when they inevitably allow Russian/Belarussian doubles to take part in the tennis tournament. 

World Sailing also let russian compete as  in the mixed Nacra event in the Last Chance Regatta, though they didn't qualify

[Illya 511]

23 minutes ago, Rafa Maciel said:

According to 14.1.4.b, an under-23 athlete can only compete in 2 team boat events - but that doesn't change the definition of what a team event is under the regulations i.e. that a team comprises of 2 or more boats as opposed to 2 or more athletes. 

So K4 is also individual event? I don't think, this rules are not clear at all, it's needed to be detailed by ICF

[Jur 683]

I read once somewhere that  considers two people events PAIRS events, and not TEAM events. And that's probably what they ae going to use to rule

[Illya 511]

3 minutes ago, Jur said:

I read once somewhere that  considers two people events PAIRS events, and not TEAM events. And that's probably what they ae going to use to rule

And how this will be corellated with shooting where 2 athletes shoot together and it's called Pistor/Rifle/Skeet MIXED TEAM?

[avlar 372]

27 minutes ago, Jur said:

World Sailing also let russian compete as  in the mixed Nacra event in the Last Chance Regatta, though they didn't qualify

Yes, and AIBA allowed them to compete under their flag.

 

The IOC does not force IFs to follow recpmmendations.

 

But notable moment - the case of Sadulaev. UWW allowed him to compete and IOC did nothing to change this.
But before the Olympic qualification tournament UWW and russians got info that Sadulaev will not be allowed to go to Paris anyway. So UWW quickly declared him ineligible to allow russians change entries and compete for quota with another athlete.

 

This case shows that decisions of IFs are only for their own competitions.

[Rafa Maciel 1,594]

15 minutes ago, Illya said:

So K4 is also individual event? I don't think, this rules are not clear at all, it's needed to be detailed by ICF

Under the letter of the regulations, the answer would have to be yes. It would be a completely illogical approach - and that is probably why the ICF and World Rowing elected to limit AIN participation to crews of 1 or 2 athletes - but allowing RUS/BLR to field a crew of 4 would be entirely compatible with their own regulations. 

 

Totally agree with your point that the ICF have failed to effectively communicate on this issue. The regulations should have been updated to include specific reference to RUS/BLR participation. 

 

17 minutes ago, Illya said:

And how this will be corellated with shooting where 2 athletes shoot together and it's called Pistor/Rifle/Skeet MIXED TEAM?

This links back to my original point - the IOC did not and have not tried to define team events. It has been clear from the start that the IOC wanted Russian/Belorussian athletes to compete in Paris, but they didn't want to impose sweeping rules that would infringe the autonomy of the international federations. They left the ultimate decisions on RUS/BLR participation to the federations.

 

With regards to the ISSF, their regulations define team events in 2 ways - the first comprising events where ranking is established on the performance of 3 athletes (same sex events) and the second covering mixed team events which have one man and one woman, both from the same country.

[Jur 683]

30 minutes ago, Illya said:

And how this will be corellated with shooting where 2 athletes shoot together and it's called Pistor/Rifle/Skeet MIXED TEAM?

Well, that's semantics?A word can mean many different things at the same time.

 

In Spain a pairs event is called PAREJAS. And parejas also means dating couples. But doesnt mean that two people compiting together in a PAREJAS events are necesarily lovers.

 

Well, this is the same. Skeet Mixed Team is named TEAM because it compromises more than one person, but doesnt mean that a team event is necesarily considered a TEAM sport.